Классика Алмазного огранщика: Нижний Срединный путь — Анализ зависимости, занятие 41

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okey dokey. I'd like to welcome our guests from Guangzhou and... Can I say Vienna?

And Taipei?

[Student]
Taichung. Taichung, wow.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Middle of Taiwan. Taichung. Middle way of Taiwan.

[Student]
Middle way.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And thank you for coming. And... Where's Xiaoping?

Xiaoping's not here. Oh, you want to give the [?]?

[Student]
We need to come up with each of you. You can have this one page. And then we need to...

It's epic.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And you have seven days. And actually you're supposed to work together.

[Student]
So...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. So it's like one page, okay? And I'll check it if it's one page or less.

So they create things from this class for normal people in any country. Normal people. Not like us.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Exactly. Mixed nuts. Mixed nuts, yeah.

All right. Here you go. Thank you.

And I'd like to welcome Mr. Ye again. We did a beautiful talk yesterday, and thank you. Okay.

Nani? What? How do I say your name?

[Student]
Luna. Luna. Luna.

Luna. Luna. Oh, moon.

Ah, okay, okay. La Luna.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
La Luna. Okay.

[Student]
La Luna. Luna. Okay.

So guys, class.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
First we do homework. First we do quiz. Okay.

Let's do homework. From last class. All these are very easy.

I mean, we only covered two, what do you call that, two sections. Links? Two what?

Links? Two links. Oh, two sections.

Less than one link. So I try my best to come up with very difficult questions, but anyway. So actually we still have nose and tongue in the form we are.

Wow. What do we not have there? Smell and taste.

[Student]
Smell and taste.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yul [?].

[Student]
Food and sight. Well, yeah, you could say smell and taste awareness.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The objects of smell and taste. That's it.

[Student]
That's it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No yul [?]. There's no object. So because no object, we don't have the smell and taste.

Okay. According to Adam's text. Yeah.

How many, ah, this is easy. How many sense powers are neutral in link number five and how many in link number six? It feels like a trick question.

So it's according to this. Yeah, I'm not, I'm just.

[Student]
He's got Lum [?] to back him up.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Lum [?]. He's got Lum [?] to back him up.

[Student]
I got backed up Lum [?].

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Right. Anybody? Database, come on.

The five physical ones are all neutral. Which link? There must be a difference.

It's not in link number six. It's link number six. You said five.

His Wheel of Life text. What did he get? Five.

Not in link number five. They're neutral. No, no, no.

None in link number five. But link number six, all except the mind. Lung Ma Ten.

I don't know why. We don't know why. We don't know why.

Yeah, we don't know why. Yes. Okay.

Ah, this is easy. Oh, this is very difficult.

[Student]
In link number six.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This is easy. This is very difficult. You sound like Nagarjuna.

Which is contact. What are the relationships between objects, sense power, and awareness? They make contact.

[Student]
Ah. No, no, no. Not enough.

Trick question.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Not enough.

[Student]
Where?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
They make nearly. Where? Where?

Oh, it's a state of mind. As opposed to a situation. Ooh.

Okay, okay, okay. They contact each other as a mental function rather than physical. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. All right.

Yeah. Hopefully it's difficult enough for all of us.

[Student]
Whoa. We saw that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Okay. I came up with post-Tibetan and the English.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Never mind. It's a bonus.

What is Ge Sok Sum?

[Student]
Good and bad.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good, bad, and karma. What is the literal meaning of Ge Sok Sum? Those younger are now.

Now. Now. Stop throwing things at me.

Those people who are here before me, please keep quiet. Only those who are later than me, you can answer. What is the literal meaning?

I was the first one in here in the morning. It's okay. Did a break?

No. Okay. Ge Sok Sum.

What's the literal meaning of Ge Sok Sum? Come on, come on. In Tibetan.

Christine and Catherine. Good, bad, and easier. Good, good.

[Student]
Very good.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Like that? Ge Sok Sum. Ge.

[Student]
Geswa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The three.

[Student]
Punya.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Punya. Punya. Good karma.

Good karma. Ge is good karma. And what is sok?

Sok. Sok means? And the rest.

[Student]
And the rest.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And sum is? Those three. Three.

[Student]
Karsna. Karsna.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Karsna. Karsna. Karsna.

Karsna. Karsna. Karsna.

Oh, very good. Punya. Punya.

[Student]
Punya. Punya.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Non-good deed.

[Student]
Matukong. That's a tough one.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Matukong. Us, us, it's out. Okay, thank you.

Alright. Sorry I was sleepy this morning. Maybe.

You want to tell what your text is about? Okay. Yeah.

Basically, this is a discussion of the link of the Wheel of Life based on the, I mean this is done by Kedrup Tenpa Dargye, based on the book by Master Asanga, and we are basically only focusing on the [?] links, and we actually go very deep into each of the links, and we are now on link number 6, link number 6, yeah, I saw about link number 6 now, this one. Okay, so 6 is when you're, basically when your mind makes contact with the outside world, you see a donut, and then what happens is, sorwa, vedana, you have a feeling about it, I like this, I don't like this, okay. Vedana?

Yeah, then, which is related to vid [?], for example, then somebody tried to give a definition for, oops, sorry, somebody tried to give a definition. What's the system that we use for this text? Explain, what happens first?

Oh yeah, what, basically we are using the debate system, and then the first one we will, the other guy will always come in with all the wrong definitions, and then we will answer them, and then finally we give our definition, and at the end we give them the opportunity to rebut, to come back and attack us. And this is how you learn in the monastery, they don't tell you, here's the textbook, learn this, they say, first they tell you what's wrong, then they tell you what's right, and then the wrong guy gets to come back again, and attack you. And it's a nice system for learning things.

Maybe there's a life tool there somewhere, I don't know. At least when they come in with all the wrong views, we get to know which are not part of what we are going to define. Yeah, you, for example, in a [?] program, you could tell them all the wrong thing in the morning, and then at noon tell them everything you said in the morning was wrong, and then in the afternoon they get to come back and fight with you.

That's how, that's how we learn in the monastery. They don't have a textbook that says, this is, this is, this is, this is, they don't do that. First we learn the wrong thing.

So, here's the wrong thing. Now, somebody gave a definition of feeling, which is too long to go through again, because it would take all your time. But he didn't mention zakche.

He didn't mention that it was impure. Because everything in the wheel is impure, because that's pain, the wheel of pain. Okay?

No, he didn't say one turning of the wheel, but I don't know if we're going to attack that. But I know we're going to attack the zakche. So, here we go.

He gave a definition for feeling, and he didn't mention the word impure. Feeling has a link in the wheel. He didn't mention the word impure.

So, here's our response. Okay? Ready?

Go. sangye-pak te mik gi gyu te rek te geng ki sor wei che chen sor wei che...who's got the plane? There's no plane.

The plane's... che chen chun ja der pao chun ja der pao Wait, are you going up or down?

[Student]
No, sir.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Go down. It's sarcastic.

[Student]
We're attacking.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
How you go up or down in your voice, whether you're attacking or not. der pao der pao. Are you telling me?

chen gyi dey che te che chun dey dey che te Ew. Okay. Almost illegal reason.

Okay, translate. sangye-pak pa. Difficult word.

The Arya who is a Buddha. Yeah, an Arya who's a Buddha, because Buddhas are still Aryas. You never stop being an Arya after you're...

Okay, when you become a Buddha. mik gi gyu te rek pa The touch which is... Contact of the...

eye with the object. Which is caused by that. the contact Yeah, and this could have been an instrumental, but he's...

If you use an instrumental long enough, you can make an inabitant. Seriously, a genitive, sorry.

[Student]
Genitive. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Contact with the eye-ish. Rather than caused by contact with the eye. Okay.

It just, it can be, in philosophy. And that feelings, which come from looking at the watermelon juice, okay? Triggered by looking at the watermelon juice.

Let's take that. Sunjata, are you telling me that's what's being... Defined.

Defined, in this book? Are we defining how a Buddha feels about when they see something? What's wrong with that?

Why is it sarcastic? Because Buddha is supposed to be out of the wheel. Yeah, he's up above, pointing to the moon.

He's not in the wheel. Okay. Why do you say...

Why do you say that? Why do you say Buddha's eye is what I must be defining, or Buddha's feelings is what I'm defining? Well, because you gave a definition, and you didn't say impure.

Implied. Implied. Okay.

chen yi de chö te chö chen ni me chö na That's not too clear, but let's go on. Yeah, the subject is what we took, okay? Now, here's the bad conclusion, if you agree that the Buddha is in the wheel, okay?

de na de na duk den yin pat thalo thalo What can you say about the truth of suffering?

[Student]
It's not a truth.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good. Explain. So, the first teaching the Buddha ever gave, he said, everything's pain.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then...

[Student]
We refer to all stuff is the truth of suffering. It's not that it's a truth, like, as opposed to a lie. It's more like a reality, or a world that we're experiencing.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. So, if you pinch somebody, that's the truth of suffering. It's not a statement.

It's not a principle. It's the reality of the thing. So, when we say the four truths, we're not talking about four statements.

We're talking about the actual thing. So, in Buddhism, truth, the first teaching the Buddha ever gave, refers to the real, the actual thing. You can say the reality of pain, you see?

It's not a principle. It's not that the Buddha gave four principles. He said, look, this is pain.

Your body is pain. It's not that your body is a principle, or something like that. Okay?

So, Thalo, are you telling me that the feelings of the Buddha, triggered by looking at something, are the reality of pain? Yes, pain. I like to use pain for duhkha, because it's a more direct word than suffering, you know, for normal people.

Pain is more direct than a three-syllable word, suffering. Okay, pain. Okay, so we beat him, he runs away, embarrassed, and another guy comes.

Good. Who's got the plane, Kramer? Who's got the plane?

Yanlakshmi, Kinang Sen, Dukkhyurpe Sorwe, Khyurpe, Khyur, Khyurpe Sorwe, Tantrel, Laena, Nikhi, Dyute, Rakpe, Khenki, Sorwe, Ne, Sorwa, Ne, Ikhi, Ik, Ik, Yi, Ikhi, Ikhi, Dyute, Rakpe, Khenki, Sorwe, war nam pa, duk yud sen, par nam pa. Look, I've got to get my cursor here.

[Student]
You have to know whether it's a word or not to know if it's going to be a noun.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Well, I'll tell you, there's a clue there, and I wanted to point that out. Yeah, if there's an apostrophe S in front of a word, like John's book, the next word has to be a noun, okay? Which means it has to be par.

Okay, yenlak chun yi? The twelve links? Yeah, nang ten.

A member of the twelve links, one of the twelve links. The tsorwa, which is one of the links. Tendrel dependent origination here means a link.

So the word for a link and the word for the whole wheel is the same thing, unfortunately. Okay, yenlak? Divide it?

Yeah, if you divide the link of feeling in up, if you divide it up, how many are there going to be? There are tuk. Six?

Six. And they start with the mik. And they go through to the yi.

To the mind, that's all, okay? Now, what's the problem with that? Okay, he said, Kachik Nare is the other guy, he's always wrong.

And our job is to find out why he's wrong. And that's how kids learn in the monastery. You are kids.

All he said was, if you take the feeling, which is link number seven in the Wheel of Life, it divides into six types, starting with your eye, and then the heart center goes down the body, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. And there's six kinds. I don't see a big problem.

[Student]
There's still no same.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There's got to be some problem here, right?

[Student]
There's still no same attorney. How would you, how would you translate that phrase?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
What is, what's the ba?

[Student]
Up to.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Up to. From, it relates to the ne, okay? Look, ne means from.

Par means up to. So, from the eye, E-Y-E, up to the mental feeling, those six, you divide into six. I don't see a big problem with his statement.

There's something wrong with his statement. And that's how kids in the monastery learn. You don't just tell them.

They have to, they have to sit here and go, why is that wrong?

[Student]
How would you translate the phrase, rek pey kin ki tsor?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Triggered by contact with the eye. Feelings triggered by...

And sometimes I like trigger for kin, in the Wheel of Life. Because the Wheel of Life is a chain reaction. You know, number one triggers the next one, and two triggers three, three triggers four, four triggers five, okay.

I like to say trigger for kin sometimes. So, feeling which is triggered by contact of the eye with the watermelon juice jar. Okay.

Painful, because it's [?]. Up to. Now, what's wrong with that?

Here's our, here's our response. Okay, this is where we attack him. Go ahead.

de duk po te yamlak chu ni ki mang tsen du gyur pey Not in, okay, that's Chinese pronunciation of y. Yin. Yin bata.

Yin. Yin bata. And then when an American pronounces a Chinese y, they have to say yi.

You can't say yi. Okay, got it? It's, it's, it makes your English sweeter.

If you go, if you practice. Yin. Okay, not in.

Okay, and then Americans when they speak Chinese, they can't say yin go for cause and effect. They have to say yin go, right? Okay.

Okay, here we go. de duk po te yamlak chu ni ki mang tsen du gyur pey tsorway ten dang yin bata. So those six are the, are the seventh link.

Are those six the seventh link? Yes. This is our complaint.

Well, why do you say that? te te yi we yagyel Ten dollars for yagyel.

[Student]
Oh, it's a mistake.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Nope, I'm safe. Yenlak means one of a division. It's like nonsense.

Okay? It means a component of a division. It's kind of unusual.

Okay? It's getting harder for me to save money in this group. I told [?], I have trouble in the class.

He said, what? I said, I keep losing money. They know everything now.

Okay? So it's one of the divisions. It means one of the divisions.

Yenlak. Okay?

[Student]
Oh, so he's saying...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Duna. By the way, I'm gonna cut this off, because it looks sweeter. You know, when you're translating hard things, we call divide and conquer.

You know, keep splitting. In Russian class, they taught me this. You know, keep splitting the sentence to make it easier.

Okay? When you're translating. Okay.

Duna. Duna. De duk po kang rung yin na.

Tenlak chuni kinam sen tu gyur pe sorway tenrel yin gyur par. Talo. Fifty dollars.

Fifty dollars. He gets interested. His eyes light up.

[Student]
Fifty dollars.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
If it would be the six, or one, or all, or... Wait, wait, you just said like four things.

[Student]
Yeah. De duk po kang rung. You gotta say it's all of them.

You can't just say it's all of them. You gotta say one or more, and...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
By the way, don't worry about one or more here. Just say any one. It's okay.

[Student]
Any one. Any one. Right, but isn't that what he's complaining about?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Forty dollars.

[Student]
That we were ambiguous.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Thirty dollars. If it's any one of the six... Twenty dollars.

Then you need to say that feeling is a link. You owe me money. Of the twelve numbers.

Of the twelve. So you owe me money. What's the problem?

What's the problem? What did you do wrong?

[Student]
He's not saying it's all six together.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good. Are you saying any one of those is the link of feeling?

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's the whole link of feeling. It's implied. Okay.

Are you saying that feeling that comes from the eye, is the seventh link?

[Student]
It's not.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's not. It's incomplete. It has to be all six.

Because he used the word yenlak. He said one member. Okay.

[Student]
Oh, so those that are in the form realm...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Anytime... Oh yeah, good debate. So, form realm people aren't in the Wheel of Life, I guess.

Exactly, yeah. I'm just here. I'm just the translator.

Okay.

[Student]
All right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
What is that in, in gu? In gu part of? Not in gu.

Yin. Yin, yin. Yeah.

Where are we? Then they occur here. Then you need to say?

Need to say?

[Student]
Yeah, gu. Where? At the end of his tale.

The tale we just did.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh yeah, would have to be. Would have to be. Optative.

Would have to be. Okay. Would have to be.

Yeah. Sorry, I still don't get this line. What does it mean?

Okay. If you say, I agree, then, if something is any one of the six feelings, triggered by any one of the six senses, okay, you hear something you don't like, okay? Then, is that the whole seventh link?

Okay. Is any one of them the whole seventh link? Because he used the word yenlak, component.

Yeah, he used the word member, okay? It's a nudnik thing.

[Student]
Come on. That's what they do with this.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah. Let's see if we get a more substantial debate here. Maybe we will, maybe we won't.

I have the punchline there. I'm going to put it down where you can't see it. Because Kramer will use it to get rich.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Go ahead. Kachik Nare. Yanlakchuni.

Kinangsen. Dugyurpe. Tsorwa.

Tsorwa. Yip. Te.

Tang. Tenangsen. Dugyurpe.

Tsorwa.

[Student]
Kyurpe.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Kyurpe. Kyurpe. Tsorwa.

Dewa. Nyi. Ngyel.

[Student]
Ngal. Ngal. Nice prenasal.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Sexy prenasal. Nice. Ngyel.

Ngyel. Because Ngyel means a horse saddle. And Ngyel means contradictory.

Guess which one we have here. Thank you. Thank you for your contribution.

Thank you for your service. Kachik Nare means what? Yeah, somebody comes to fight.

Okay. It means one mouth opens. Something like that.

Yanlakchuni. Twelve links. Nangten.

Member of. Yeah, nice. Tsorwa.

The feeling. Feeling. Yidde.

Happy mind. Happy mind. Yeah.

Pleasure of the mind. Okay. Pleasure of the mind.

Okay. Pleasure in the mind.

[Student]
Okay. Pleasurable mind.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And the Dewa. The feeling of happiness. Well, Dewa can mean physical pleasure.

Physical pleasure. Okay. Can mean.

Okay. Those two are mutually contradictory. Yeah, Tsorwa Dewa and Tsorwa Yidde Dewa are contradictory.

Mental pleasure and pleasure are contradictory. And in English also, pleasure most often means physical. Okay.

The word pleasure often means physical. Not mental. Okay.

As a member of the group though, is that what it's saying? Yeah. Okay.

And I mean, I'm just going to tell you, okay, because it's not worth the time. In Tibetan also, and in Buddhism, the word pleasure is ambiguous. You see, you can divide pleasure, you can divide feelings into three, or you can divide feelings into five.

What? Pleasure, pain, and between. And when you divide it that way, pleasure can be mental or physical.

And pain can be mental or physical. But, you can also divide it, Abhidharmakosha, into five. Physical pleasure, mental pleasure, physical pain, mental pain.

And they don't divide neutral, they say, because it's so neutral. And there's no content, you know. You know, you could have said mental neutral and physical neutral.

But they said, come on, it's so... it's so generic. Why divide it, okay?

So, there's a... there's a problem with Dewa, because Dewa is physical pleasure also. It's the word used for physical pleasure.

But when you say mental, it's the word used for mental pleasure. So, it's ambiguous. It's not clear, when you say Tsorwa Dewa, if you're talking about only physical pleasure, as in English, or you're talking about mental and physical pleasure.

How did he take it here? It should be physical because... Yeah, just physical, because it contradicts...

No one thing can be both, unless it's a good veggie burger. Okay. What is gal here?

What does it mean? Gal means contradictory. Which means no one thing can be both.

No one thing can be both. Okay. And the study of contradiction is part of Adam's text.

And when we... Didn't we get that? There's different kinds of contradiction.

There's contradicting your wife. There's contradicting your wife. Okay.

Right? Useless. Hopeless.

Okay. Then we say, min gal wa thao. Those are contradictory.

They're not contradictory.

[Student]
They're not contradictory.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Because the link of the twelve, which is yi de. Mental. Mental pleasure.

It's got de wa.

[Student]
It's got.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It must be pleasure. And then we're doing... We're doing...

What do you call that when you skip major terms?

[Student]
Equivocating.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We're equivocating.

[Student]
Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. We say, oh, let's take the mental pleasure. It's not only not contradictory, it must be pleasure.

And then we're skipping to the three from the five. Illegally. In between here, at na, we skip from the division into five to the division into three.

It's unfair. We are cheating. But we're allowed to cheat.

Because it's us. Again, how are we cheating? We start with the division into five, and we say mental pleasure.

And then halfway through the sentence we say, It is one of the divisions, but we're talking about the three divisions. It is a kind of pleasure.

[Student]
Okay. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
But... What the author wants to do is to point out that in Buddhism there are two divisions of feeling. Into five or into three.

Classically. Abhidharma. You can divide it into five.

And the division into five and three relates to meditation. Can... At a certain point in formal meditation you can't feel physical pleasure.

Okay. So you've got to divide them. It relates to the meditative stages and things like that.

That's a good point. I guess we would. Physical pleasure.

Okay. Yeah. If something is mental pleasure, it's got to be pleasure.

But we skip in between those. At that comma, we skip from the five division to the three division. We did an illegal thing.

But we're allowed to. Because it's us. Mom and dad can say things that are not logical.

But kids cannot.

[Student]
Right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This is democracy. Family democracy. What?

Oh yeah, that's a difficult word. Bu means to spit out something. Pu.

And it's the verb for playing a trumpet. So when I was in the monastery, you know you have these trumpets that are like four or five meters long. And they sit on the ground.

And... And the last guy who knew how to play it was getting old. Only one guy knew how to play it.

So they said, teach some young monks. And you know, of course, all the young monks want to try. And we started doing it, you know.

I wasn't in on it, but I watched it. And the monks would go... And they'd go...

And it was terrible. And then they made a rule that they had to go out in the cornfield. Because it was so irritating to the whole monastery.

We said, you have to go out in the cornfield to practice. They went way out in the cornfield. But that's called buddho.

But in a debate it means puh. You know, puh. Yeah, tab buddho.

Oh, the thought blows you away. Blows you away. How's that?

Our reason blows you away.

[Student]
It has to be, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's us.

[Student]
We're always right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Just like in a family.

[Student]
...because of the way that he equivocated. Like he just said simple...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Student]
...how to communicate to the reader that the first time he was in bond physical and...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That is your problem. Okay, I'm just teaching you. Yeah.

And I made you a note, so you'll remember. Okay. I guess this will be the footnote, right?

I don't think so. I think it's more fun if you can... if you can somehow do it without a footnote.

Yeah, and let the reader be confused. That's their... They're supposed to wonder...

They're supposed to say for about ten minutes, I don't get this. And if you put a footnote and explain it, you kind of ruin the fun. Maybe there's a life tool there.

Confuse your student. Don't resolve everything right away. Give them some tension.

Make them sit there and go, I don't get it. In the monastery it's a very common technique. They require you once a week to go to a higher class and sit there for an hour and you have no idea what they're talking about.

They require you to go. And the first time I was sent, I said, this is a waste of my time. I don't understand anything they said.

Like mind-only or something. And then, but when I got to mind-only, it planted seeds. Three years later I...

You see, so you're required in the debate ground also. The first debate of the night is against someone higher than you. And you have no idea what they're talking about.

It's like having a conversation. He's using mind-only language and you're using, you know, kadho karma. You're down in basic logic.

And it's just a waste of time. I'm like, this is a waste of time. He's speaking another language.

And they said, it's to prepare your mind for later. And it's a good system. Okay, here we go.

So don't explain everything for your reader. Frustrate them sometimes. A good reader will get inspired to work harder.

A bad reader will put your book down forever. ka chik na re, tsorwa, tsorwa deway wangpo yin na wang she kor kyi tsorwa yin pey kyab tsorwa yip dey yin na yip she, yip she kor kyi tsorwa yin pey kyab se na Hmm. Oh boy.

This gets into a subject from the Abhidharma, second chapter. We haven't got there yet. But the second chapter of the Abhidharma is called Wangpo Ne, Kosha [?], the chapter on the powers.

And we didn't get there yet. But there's 22 powers. And he's referring to them.

And I went and got them for you. And I'm going to give you a little lesson on the 22. Here's the footnote.

Okay. And that's the 22. Okay.

Because you can't understand this debate unless you know the 22. And you don't study the 22 until 20 years later. But they don't care.

[Student]
What do you think you should do? Because this is kind of like between a footnote and a paragraph.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I think it's short enough for a footnote once you understand it. I just laid it out so it was easier for you. But it's up to you.

I think it's more likely that the reader will read it if it's a footnote than if you put it at the back of the book. But it's up to you. Anyway, you can't understand this debate if you don't understand that Wangpo, power, can mean 22.

For example, femininity and masculinity are in the 22 powers. Usually the powers refer to eye, ear, nose, tongue, like Heart Sutra. But in the Abhidharma, power has a much greater sense.

Okay, so, here we go. Kachik Nare. Oh, we did it.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, Kachik Nare. Somebody comes and says, if something is the power... Okay, because power often means sense power.

Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin. Okay, so usually Wangpo means one of those five. And you can add a sixth one, which is your mental power.

Okay. So, somebody said, if something is a power of pleasure, okay, then it must always be feeling which relates to the... to the awareness of your senses.

Wang Shi. To the awareness of your senses. And if something is mental, the feeling of mental pleasure, it must be a feeling which relates to your awareness of your thoughts, awareness of your mind.

Okay? Always, he says. Khyap.

Khyap means always the case, no exceptions. Now generally, just be aware in the debate ground, never start with Khyap. Never start with always.

Because if the guy can find one exception, you're in trouble. Okay? When you're talking to your wife, never say always.

Just say, I think mostly. Mostly. Because she'll find some counterexample.

That you can say. That you can... That you can say.

Just before you show she's wrong. Okay, here we go. Now we're going to start with your old friend.

Kyi gen gyal, eh? Gina, your husband is not Kyi gen gyal, okay? Khi gen gyal.

Khi gen gyal gyuk gyi tsorwa deway wangpo chö chen wang se kor gyi tsorwa yinpar thao Are you going up or down? No, this is our counterexample. This is a counterexample.

Are you telling me...

[Student]
yinpar thao.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's always. After kha chik, the first thao, 90% sarcastic. He say, all fruits are red.

Then you say, Okay, let's take a banana. Are you telling me it's red? And in English you go up.

In Tibetan you go down. Are you telling me it's red? Okay, gotta go down.

Thao, yinpar thao. Tsorwa deway... Tsorwa deway wangpo yinpey chye te Chö chen yinpey chye te Do you know?

wang se chor sem yinpar thao yinpar thao Yeah, deway chen. So let's go slow, okay? Our favorite example, kyi gen gyal The old dog.

Old dog. Old mangy dog. When they want to say something like ridiculous, they say, Come on, even old dogs have this.

They always start the debate with, Let's take an old dog. It doesn't refer to me, okay? Kyi gen gyal tsorwa.

Feeling. Yeah, dewa. Oh, the good feeling.

Yeah, the good feeling. And then he uses the word power. Let's take the power of pleasure, which is a feeling in the mind of an old mangy dog, okay?

Chö chen. Their... Their power of feeling.

So now we're already in trouble, because power of feeling gets into the Abhidharma. Okay? We're going to Abhidharma.

We're setting him up to fail. Oh, so I guess that's a kind of feeling which is... which is connected to senses.

That must be a kind of feeling which is connected to the senses, right?

[Student]
Okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Why do you say that? Oh, because it's the power of pleasure, feeling, which is the power of pleasure. Okay?

Are you telling me it's always connected to your senses? Which means power. Sense power.

It's a pun on power. Well, he says, yeah, it is. Okay?

Because... Chö chen deim chen. Then he says, yeah, duh, I agree.

Then we say... Okay, this part's easy. What's that?

Are you telling me that...

[Student]
Wait.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Are you telling... Phrase it that way.

[Student]
Are you telling me that the main mind is the sense of awareness of the power?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, go the other way.

[Student]
Are you telling me the awareness of the power is that main mind? Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Are you telling me, for example, that the awareness of your eye, of something you're seeing, is main mind? So we divide between... Give a...

Main mind and what? Symptoms, mental factors.

[Student]
Mental functions. Mental functions, yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So give some examples.

[Student]
Pride.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, pride.

[Student]
Jealousy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Jealousy. Compassion.

[Student]
Compassion.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
These are mental functions of the big mind, okay? So we're saying, are you telling me that the awareness of your senses is main mind? Is it main mind?

No.

[Student]
It is.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Is it?

[Student]
It is.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, awareness of the jars is main mind.

[Student]
Oh, I said no, because it's... Aren't we trying to give him a... Yeah.

It's touch, we're disproving touching, but it actually feels like he's right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, it's a question, because here it says core. What's core mean? Attended to.

Yeah. In the circle of the main mind. So the main mind is like the king, and then around the main mind is pride, desire, compassion, feelings.

Okay, feelings are not main mind. They are function of the mind.

[Student]
But awareness is the main mind.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. We're supposed to be defining the seventh link, which is... Feelings.

Feelings, which is not main mind. Okay? It's not.

It's a mental function. It's one of the... Kundronga.

Wow, kundronga. It's one of the five mental functions that never stops in a human being. You can be unconscious, you can be on the operating table, you can be almost dead, but your feeling never stops.

And that's part of samsara. You can't turn off your feeling. Ever.

Okay? And that's one of the problems of this life. You cannot turn it off.

And people try, right? They take drugs, they take alcohol. They try desperately to turn off their feeling, but in the deepest drunk state, you still have feeling.

You can't turn it off. Okay? So that's part of samsara.

And it will start to feel bad. You know? So...

But it's not the main mind. Okay? So...

Wangshe tsotsen chö chen, are you telling me that awareness of what you see, smell, taste here is the main mind? And we say... It is.

I mean it is. Okay? Awareness of the cup, how I feel about it, is not main mind.

That's a mental function. Right. But my awareness of the cup is main mind.

That's okay.

[Student]
This is us.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Well, there's a big mess here. There's a big confusion here. Let's get some stuff straight.

Okay? There's a main mind. Tsotsen.

[Student]
Tsotsen.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Big important word. You use the word tsotsen when you want to oppose it to...

[Student]
semchun.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, mental function. So, tsotsen means main mind. But what does it mean to be tsotsen?

What's it mean to be main mind? It's your raw awareness of the world. Okay?

No... No... what do you call it?

Coloration. We're not talking how you feel. We're not talking compassion.

We're not talking anger. We're not talking anything. Just awareness.

The thing you lose if someone punches you really hard. Yeah. Okay?

Your general awareness is called tsotsen. And then there's fifty... Fifty-one...

Fifty-one functions going on. Sometimes they're there. Compassion is there sometimes.

Anger is there sometimes. Jealousy is there sometimes. And then sometimes they're not.

Okay? So, is the feeling, which is link number seven, is it general awareness, or is it a part of the mind?

[Student]
Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Question. Give me an answer.

[Student]
He's like, right. The feeling is part of the mind.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, but is it a... Yeah, is it a little part of the mind, and not the whole mind? Correct.

Yeah, it's a little part of the mind, and not the whole mind. Okay? So, we...

Somehow his definition makes the awareness of the cup main mind. But it is.

[Student]
Okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
But it is. Yeah, somewhere in there we switch. Let's keep going and see if we get any clarification.

He's going to the ambiguity in the twenty-two powers of the Abhidharma system. Okay? Which includes many other things.

As I said, femininity, masculinity. Here's the normal ones. Your life is called a power.

Here's the male and female powers. Your feelings in the Abhidharma system are a wangpo. Okay?

Your feeling. Not the eye. Not the ear.

Because in your school, eye, ear, are wangpos. Indriya. Indriya in Sanskrit.

But in the Abhidharma system, the feeling is also an indriya. Whether it's connected to the eye or not. That's the problem.

Okay? Whether it's connected to the eye or not. And then depa.

[Student]
Sundru. Tempa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Ting nge dzin. Yeah, here it just means... it doesn't mean meditation, it means focus.

What's the Sanskrit? Samadhi. Okay.

And sherab. Yeah, then there's three more bizarre wangpos in the Abhidharmakosha. The one that makes you omniscient.

The one that is omniscience. And the one of possessing omniscience. And that's a big confusion in the Abhidharma.

Okay, but these twenty-two are all wangpos. And our guy is cheating. Our system is cheating.

Because we're bringing up these other wangpos, some of which are main-mind.

[Student]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Like Yiki Wangpo. Yeah, why not?

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And by the way, here in the Abhidharma system, five of the powers are the five feelings, when you break them out into mental and physical. So our guy is... and here's the categories, okay?

There are seven main... tengyi wangpo. Basic powers.

There's two powers based on those, which is femininity and masculinity. There's the five feeling powers. There's five powers of enlightenment.

And then there's the three powers which are beyond all impurity. Buddha, Buddha-ish powers. And we're mixing it up with your system to confuse the other guy.

Okay, so the guy who's mixing them up is us, which means it's okay. If we're the one doing it, it must be legal.

[Student]
Oh, these make you enlightened.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's involved with enlightenment. How's that? Okay.

Like faith. Doing good deeds. Remembering the Dharma.

Okay, but this is all Abhidharma. This is all second chapter. This is all Stanley in 2024 or something.

Okay, his book is a 20-year thing. Really. We won't get there.

We won't get there until he's a Kijengal. What's that mean? Until he's an old dog.

[Student]
Okay. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, the five powers. Which come in the Yoga Sutra also. I believe the Yoga Sutra was stolen, most of it from Buddhism.

About the time of Nagarjuna. Anyway. And what's ironic is I wrote a book about it and it became totally popular, and I don't believe it.

It's like the Abhidharma. Okay. Alright, so anyway, next time we'll start with the 22.

We will master them, and then we'll come back to the debate and see...

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Because you cannot understand this debate unless you understand that the word power in his school is your sense powers. But when you get to Abhidharma, it can mean all this other stuff. And we're throwing in Abhidharma power.

Indriya. And Indra means powerful one, right? Yeah.

It's the... Indra is a Hindu god of power, called [?]. Power, the powerful one.

But in the senses, it means the power of the senses. Yeah, Indriya. Yeah, okay.

What's the date today? One twenty...

[Student]
Twenty-thirty.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, man.

[Student]
Can we do a little beauty break for our guests? The sun is rising on the red mountain.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh yeah. Go for it. Watch this cord.

I'll put this down here. Wow. Yeah.

You have to come back to Sedona. You have to come back to Sedona. Three times is lucky.

[Student]
We can see there's a good view of the forest over here.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, you can't leave it up for the PP break?

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's one of the most famous views in America. Six million people come to see this every year. And we have it outside our window.

Cool. Adam climbed up there the other day. I'm like, he's like, you want to go with me?

I'm like, no. Send me a picture. [?].

Smoky. Thanks for coming. You're welcome to stay.