Классика Алмазного огранщика: Нижний Срединный путь — Анализ зависимости, занятие 54

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, homework time. What are the three possible ways to group the links? I don't know.

Say again?

[Student]
Mental, mental?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
What?

[Student]
Many links which are causing mental? Cause and effect?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Cause and effect is one. Physical and mental? No, no.

[Student]
Those are the aspects.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Physical, physical?

[Student]
Those are the aspects.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yes, the negative emotions.

[Student]
And the two are real truths. Yeah, the two are real truths.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Three, three, yeah. That is the next question. Okay, which are the truth of suffering and which are the source of the truth of suffering?

Which links? One, two. The truth of suffering is?

The truth of suffering is three through eight, three through seven and eleven and twelve? Or three through eight and eleven and twelve? Okay, the source of the truth of suffering first.

Two and ten? Two and ten. I don't remember.

You're looking at me like I was saying something crazy.

[Student]
Let me see.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
First and second are the truth. And then the source is eight, nine, ten.

[Student]
Oh, eight, nine, ten.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That doesn't sound right. I mean, Kedrup Tenpa Dargye said so in the commentary. He's not from the Tengyur.

[Student]
How could one not be the source of suffering? How could one not be the truth of suffering? It is.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
One is truth. Misunderstanding in the... Oh, yeah, yeah, how can...

[Student]
What kind of suffering? Samsara.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Samsara is suffering. It's all the three. Let me WhatsApp him first and see what he says.

Okay, what are the three basic negative emotions as the third way of the grouping? Someone's trying to get your attention. Yeah, I know, I'm trying to...

Okay. Okay, what are the three basic negative emotions as the third way of the grouping?

[Student]
Three animals?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, these are very, very complicated.

[Student]
How are they basic?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I don't know. The negative emotions of the totally messed up negativities, the karma of the totally messed up negativities, and the foundation of the totally messed up negativities. Did you just come up with this?

Okay, with no prize, anybody wants to guess which is which?

[Student]
Which is which what?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which is which? Which of the links are part of...

[Student]
Which link is this one? Two ten is B.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Two ten is B, that's very obvious.

[Student]
Eight nine.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Eight nine, yeah. Eight nine is A and then all the rest are C. Okay, now the Tibetan.

The first one. Nyunmongpe kunne nyunmongpa. Okay, let's do it together.

Leki kunne nyunmongpa and si kunne nyunmongpa. Okay, let me give you the answer. These are the three answers.

These are the three answers. I mean the English are so messed up, I really don't know.

[Student]
The English?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I really don't know how to fit in the [?] to all this, you know.

[Student]
So then which one is totally messed up?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Kunne. What should we say, Geshe La, totally messed up negativities, is that...

[Student]
The afflicted side of things of all afflictions.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Afflicted sides of things?

[Student]
Negative side of things.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Negative side of things?

[Student]
Because there's nyunmong which... Oh, there's two nyunmongpa sides.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, negative side of things. Okay, even then it's so difficult to understand. Negative emotions of the negative sides of things, negative emotions of the negative sides of things, karma of the negative sides of things and foundation.

Okay, maybe. Okay, I don't know.

[Student]
No, because there's pa on both of them, which means it's the negative side, so we don't have just nyunmong. Totally messed up side of the negative.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Totally messed up side?

[Student]
Totally.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Totally? Totally messed up side of things?

[Student]
Yeah, but what? Yeah, I don't know, I mean...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I don't know, my mind just can't... Yeah, it's okay. Geshe La, please take over the plane.

You crash the plane, then I have to take the plane. No, no, I'm done, I'm done.

[Student]
You're done, walking away. I have three phrases.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I have three phrases.

[Student]
So many words.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So many words, yeah.

[Student]
Too many notes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Too sexy.

[Student]
Too sexy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Conditions. Somebody was talking about conditions just now, and those are not divisions, right?

[Student]
You froze?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It could be the Apple TV, or it could be the computer again.

[Student]
It could be the Geshe La's computer is probably loaded to the max. Is it good? Well, you know, we all know that he has rebooted now.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There's a new one. Okay, oh, cool. And now it's not rendering properly.

Yeah, it's not rendering properly. Should I close the button?

[Student]
I don't like it. Unfortunately, the only thing we have seen to be effective so far was rebooting. I know.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I could do that. Okay, oh, money, money, money.

[Student]
So, thanks. Is that what she said?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Okay, so that is what she cooed. That was my own office joke.

I'm rebooting.

[Student]
Oh, no. It's too early now. Right now?

Waiting to take off? Oh, I see. I see.

I'll have to make the ambiance of the room. Oh, that too. It doesn't quite fit.

The question is, where is the room? Uh-huh. Yeah.

Cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah.

[Student]
It's so good.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Cool.

[Student]
Bless you.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
All right. Okay. We were in Kachen [?].

My presentation. We were in a presentation by. That's pretty good.

[Student]
It's right up against the. Oh. Let's swallow just a little of it.

Here we go.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We were in a. Come in. We were in a presentation.

It doesn't seem to be working. No.

[Student]
Hello.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, yeah. Okay. We're in a.

You got to turn that one. We're in a presentation by the Abbot of Tashi Lhunpo. Which is the fourth great Gelugpa monastery.

First Panchen Lama's seat. And was teacher of one of my teachers. So he's going to explain those.

He's going to give brief definitions of the four khyens.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And they're just nice to have. Because they're not clear from Abhidharma. Okay.

They're listed in Sanskrit in the Abhidharma, which is helpful. So we finished the gyu kyen, which is the cause factor. Which is a weird name for something.

Okay. And basically, it was anything which acts to produce its own result. Okay.

So that would be any factor at all, I think, almost. Including causes. Yeah.

And then we had. And he said. He's trying to give them different flavors.

And somehow it's important. And he said. Anything which has.

Rāghi dākhen yupe chū. That's weird. I don't know about this.

Anyway. It's the same thing as ngupo. Working thing.

Ngupo. Anything that triggers another thing is the same as a working thing. He's going to change that in each definition.

Okay. Now, here's the definition of the second cause. And I think this would be good in a footnote or something.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Rangre. Rangwang tuto kyeche. Dākhen yuteni.

The dominant factor. Definition is. It mainly.

It mainly triggers its result independently. Without depending on other factors. That's.

And I warn you. That in the literature. Dāk.

When you see dāk before khen. It often means. It has a totally different meaning.

And it means incorporated into a human body. Incorporated into a living being. So you got to see how you.

You got to see what's the context. Okay. So now we're ready for the definition of the third type of factor.

Please go. Rangre. Rang.

Rangre shepa. Yul kyi nam den. Thu ngu su kye che.

Mikyam kyi tsen ni. De rang nyupo den chik. Yeah.

That thing which acts to trigger directly its own result. Which is always a state of mind. As possessing a certain reflection of an object.

Okay. Yul kyi nam den. The state of mind will possess a reflection of an object.

Okay. So it's where the coffee cup triggers the awareness of the coffee cup. The coffee cup triggers a state of mind where you're thinking about.

Where you see a coffee cup in your mind. They're all kye che's. You see what I mean?

Here's kye che. Here's kye che. And you know it would have been more comfortable for me if he had said bas kye che.

Which is more active.

[Student]
Trigger.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, trigger rather than bring about the arisal. Okay. But it's okay.

It's acceptable. But it could have been clearer maybe. Okay.

Then he says. De rang nyupo den chik. Which means, Mr. [?]?

De rang nyupo den chik. They are basically working things?

[Student]
Or no?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. It's the same thing. It's the same thing?

[Student]
Yeah. They're the same thing?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Okay. So, that's not that helpful because anyway.

All the kye's are nyupos.

[Student]
Okay. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. But maybe it means something to him. Because he switched it here.

Here he said du che den chik. The last one was the same as a produced du thing. And then the third one is the same as a working thing.

And the first one was the same. rang gyi dak kye nyupay chen yin. I don't know why.

The two things which possess a dak kye. I don't know where he's going there. Okay.

I'm not sure. Okay. Here's the fourth one.

Go. Okay. rang re ngu su kye che kyi rigpa.

A state of mind which acts to trigger directly its own result is called a factor for what comes immediately after it. And the shepa kun dema tak kye nyin. All states of mind are factors for what comes immediately after them.

And then in the Abhidharma there's a debate. Can you guess what it is? He said these are...

He said all states of mind are factors which create something immediately after them. Where do you think the Abhidharma guys start arguing here? All states of mind create something after them.

Yeah, nirvana with no remainder. Okay, when you blink out. So there's a big debate about that.

yin ching shepa dema tak kye dön chingpa yin no. Dema tak kye, a factor for something which comes immediately after it, and state of mind are synonyms. See, he switches the synonym in each case.

And he's trying to help us. You know, he switches his synonym in each case. Got it?

Okay. rang gi mik kyen Now, this is the part that I liked. Okay, this is why I pulled him up.

I had many choices. I chose him. Why?

Please read this one. rang gi mik kyen yupe nyupo dang rang gi dema tak kye nyupe nyupo la shepa gyap te de ni kang rung yin la shepa mayinpa medpay chir rang gi mik kyen yupe nyupo Any working thing which possesses an object which triggers it, any working thing which possesses an object of perception which triggers it, and any working thing which possesses a factor which creates something immediately after it is a state of mind. Always a state of mind. These two factors, mik kyen and dema tak kyen, can only apply to states of mind.

That's what he's saying. By convention, maybe. They just never apply to anything except state of mind.

And his reason is, de ni kang rung yin la, if anything is one of those two types of factors, it's not possible for it to be something other than mind. There are no examples of things that are other than mind. Why we went here, why did I like his presentation?

We were talking about the possible combinations of mind and what it creates after it, and physical form and what it creates after it, and we were talking about khyens. You see? Remember?

Yeah. That's all. I've never seen anyone so clearly state, look, two of them are states of mind, and he just says that's the way it is.

And then Choney Lama becomes clear. Otherwise, Choney Lama's arguments are not clear, unless someone says two of them are always mind. Anyway, you'll appreciate it some other lifetime.

All right, here we go. New subject completely. Yay!

[Student]
Yeah, right. It's the jubilee.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
sumpa che tu la sok che pa la Yeah, by the way, what was the last section? It was how to group them in different ways. Cause and effect, etc.

Okay? This is talking about the twelve links of the Wheel of Life. We're on the twelve links of the Wheel of Life.

Okay. This du is interesting. You haven't met it, I think.

So tuma means many, but tu means how many. How many? Okay, so it's very, very difficult if you don't know it.

Okay, so now what does it say? If du means how many?

[Student]
sumpa che tu la sok che pa la How many lives?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, how many lives does it take to complete one circle? Okay, how many lifetimes does it take to go around the wheel one time? Okay, this is a discussion.

[Student]
And you know it because it obviously can't be followed by a [?]. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And is there no other possibility for that du? Also, it's a little confusing when you first have someone teach you the Wheel of Life. And shipa namshe.

Sorry, shipa... na pa kye che shipa namshe sumpa namshe Number three is the consciousness of the being as they enter their mother's womb at conception. And number eleven is...

[Student]
birth.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So something's going on. Number three is birth and number eleven is birth. Basically.

Okay, number three is the mind entering the womb. And then number eleven is rebirth. So, is this one life or how many lives?

How many lives is one wheel? How many lives are in there? That's this question.

How many lifetimes does it take to complete a wheel? Dzog. Okay, and we're going to explain it.

Shipa. Okay, here we go. Kacig nare.

Yalak chunyi po te tse chiklak sokpa yud samna. You guys can figure this out. But say the whole sentence.

Good, the twelve links are all finished in a single lifetime. And, by the way, when he makes a dumb statement and we come back with no, we have to go up. Okay.

No, we don't have to go up. But anyway. Go down.

It should be up, right? It is, yeah. Well, because we're saying that's incorrect.

So we go up because we believe it. You shouldn't eat candy. Just quoting your son.

kyewa ngema ne ma shiwar ndir kyewa mepey chir thang, di ne ma shiwar chimar kyewa lenpa mepey chir. kyewa ngema ne ma shiwar. You could have said bar, but I think I'll say war.

Until you die from your kyewa ngema, from your previous life, you can't be born here.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
What link is he talking about?

[Student]
Twelve.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Eleven.

[Student]
Eleven.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. You can't have eleven unless you die before that. Okay.

Okay. Dear kyewa, until you die from your past life, what's dear referred to? This life?

[Student]
Yeah, this life, exactly.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You can't be born into the... He probably didn't want to say kyewa, dear kyewa. So he just said dear.

You can't be born in this life. No such thing. And two reasons, right?

Second reason, di ne ma shiwar. Until you die in this life, chimar kyewa lenpa mepey. You can't take on your next life.

You can't take on a next life. So if the Wheel of Life has rebirth and death in it, then you've got to have two lives at least. You can't complete all twelve links in a single lifetime because you have a death and rebirth in the twelve links.

Got it? Okay. Oh, and that's all?

That's all. Okay. These are pretty easy, okay?

Okay. We'll try to find something difficult later.

[Student]
You didn't say it had to be in order. Say again? You didn't say it had to be in order.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, but there are in the twelve, two cases of rebirth. I mean... Okay.

Okay. I mean, basically, to make it simple. Okay, kachig nare.

kachig nare. Okay, what's that say? The twelve links Yeah, cannot be cannot be completed in two different lives.

Okay, in two different lives. He just wants to be clear. In two different lives, it's impossible for an entire twelve link wheel to be finished in two lifetimes.

Who said that? Kachig. So it's...

[Student]
Wrong.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which means you can finish the twelve in two lifetimes. We already learned that. Now let's learn why.

Okay. Two or at least two? At least two, yeah.

Yeah, good. Let's cut it there. Deyabhata.

Yeah, you can too finish the twelve links in two lifetimes, in two different lifetimes. I don't know why he has to say that. Mi tenla.

Now, ten here, it means body and mind, basically. Okay. I used to like to translate it as headquarters.

It's your base, home base. It's the body and mind. And so in Lamrim, you know, it's when they discuss tenjor, leisure and fortune.

You're lucky to get a ten. You're lucky to get a human ten, like a human headquarters. And then you can do all this stuff from a human headquarters.

Okay. So this ten doesn't have anything to do with dependent origination or relying on, or it doesn't mean that. What's it mean in Vinaya, ten?

It means the person who's doing the vows. Yeah, who's giving the vows. Giving the vows.

And then the braten is the candidate. So in each philosophy, in each school, ten has totally different meanings. And if you don't know it, you're going to really mess up.

Yay. Mi tenla. Okay.

Okay, you're in a mi ten. You're in a human headquarters, body and mind. And in that body, you soak, you collect karma, which is going to which is going to throw into the future penje, pumbos, body and mind, of a deva.

Okay, deva. Okay. So you are a human, and you collect some karma, which is going to toss you into a future life, which, where the heaps have ripened into a god, into a deva.

Okay. What's a typical karma of that kind?

[Student]
Meditation.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The lion's dance. Eight steps of the lion's dance, yeah. Good.

Excellent answer. I'm glad I didn't offer any money. When you say deva, they are in the form realm.

Or formless. Or formless. Yeah.

They trigger, are they triggering karma?

[Student]
What's a set up? What's a set up?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, it's the karmic lottery thing. Karmic lottery. Yeah.

So that karma is loaded, is charged, is, what do you call it with a bomb? Armed. Armed.

Okay. The karma is armed by eight and nine. Okay.

By initial desire, which I think is tied up with not understanding seeds. Okay. Set up a, and then sile, it becomes armed karma.

Nupachen.

[Student]
Powerful.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Very powerful. To explain. Powerful.

Yeah, it's a very powerful word for powerful. It means almost mystical power. When you tu gyap, it's, yeah, you put a spell on somebody.

Like you go, and then they get pimples or something. That's called tu, tu gyap. Pabongka Rinpoche was tu gyaped.

If you see his early pictures, he's very thin, and later he was extremely obese. And they say he had a war with a sorcerer.

[Student]
Yeah. No. You had amami.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
After pregnancy, people always gain weight. It's hard to lose. Okay.

Tun chen du chen ne. And then, kyewa shen kyi parma chupa, for $20. $20.

That's pretty good. His $10 answer. $10 correct answer.

No, you don't take any other life, because we want this to total how many lives? Two. So we got to say, there's no third life in between.

You're a human. You collect deva karma, and it gets armed in this life, and without any intervening life. Okay, it means, that's why it's $10 answer.

You got to say intervening. Without any intervening life, which implies, which implies, straight away, you could have an intervening life. Oh, you could.

[Student]
Is it referring to a bardo being?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Wait, listen. Parma chupa means no intervening.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So, if he says, you collect deva karma in the human life, and then without any intervening life, you're born as a deva, what's the implication?

[Student]
It's implied. Formless.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Formless. Formless realm. Yeah, they're possible, an intervening life.

Now, I told you yesterday, a principle of translation, guess what the next debate's going to be? Yeah, could you have three lives? Because this one he said, without an intervening life, which implies, there is an intervening life, which means what happened?

I'm translating the next section without looking at it. I'm not looking at it. No, try to remember, I know you were asleep at the time, but this karma was collected to become this deva, right?

And what happened to this karma? No. It got armed.

It got armed, but what if it didn't get armed? Then it would be delayed.

[Student]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And there might be an intervening life.

[Student]
Got it?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, got it? If he armed this karma, but not this karma. Okay, got it?

[Student]
Sure.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So, how long is it possible to have an unarmed karma in your being? And then, we'll see, then that's how many the limit is for twelve lives. Got it?

So, the arming is an important thing. Parma chöpa is implied. It's implying something else, that there could be a par chöpa.

There could be an intervening life. Okay? Why did he use parma chöpa here?

Come on. You guys are really asleep. More coffee.

What's he trying to prove? In two lives you can finish it. So, he has to eliminate the possibility of an intervening life.

Okay, got it? Sure. That's all.

Three minus one is... Okay.

[Student]
I think we're overthinking this.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, okay. Shengyi parma chöpa, without an intervening life, without another life intervening, kyewa shen, no other life intervening. Sar kye.

He's born as a god. Here, in this life. Okay?

He takes a life as a god. Okay? As a deva.

Then, what that means is ta-ta-ta. The yenlak chu nyi has been dzog in tse nyi.

[Student]
In two lifetimes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Sar kye. Sar kye. You said it wasn't possible.

I just proved it's possible. Right?

[Student]
Okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He collected karma. It was charged. And there was no intervening life.

Two lives. He finished. You're wrong.

Okay? Now. Go ahead.

yenlak dangpo nyi shelen shupa sum mi chö te la dzog klak ma nam le chö te la dzogpa yinpe chen Yeah, now how many of the twelve were completed in the first life, and how many of the twelve were completed in the second life? And it's not what you think. Okay?

Because the first two yenlaks, which hang together. Oh, why do they hang together? Because they're the cause of the whole wheel.

Why do they love each other? Because You have to misunderstand your husband to yell at him. To make pots, you have to be blind.

To have the first karma. Okay? They hang together.

One and two hang together.

[Student]
Okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
yenlak dangpo nyi That's why it's very cute that he put them together. Oh, those two that hang together. What?

Misunderstanding your husband and then yelling at him. Okay? And then these two hang together.

Eight and nine. Two ways of misunderstanding your seeds, which arm the seeds. And then sipa, which is which lady?

The pregnant lady. The seed is ready to break open. Okay?

Those three?

[Student]
Oh, two plus three. Okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Two plus three. Five have dzog in the midze.

[Student]
In the first life.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The human life. Okay? He doesn't say the guy had feelings, contact, sense organs.

Okay? Understand? That's not the point.

The first life links in this example are all the karmas. And all the arming of the karmas. It's not the body he was in.

Okay? In this example. Because that comes from this hlakmanam ksle tse la.

The other... How many is the usual other? Eight.

[Student]
Seven.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The other seven, which is just the basic body and mind in the human realm, in the human realm. Oh, they are resulting. They are in the second life.

Those are the deva ones. So how many of these links are human? Five.

And they're all causal. They're all karmic or loading karma. And then seven resulting.

Okay? Which means the seven in the first wheel were... belong to the life before.

Got it? Got it? They don't count in this wheel.

Got it? And listen, there's something I realized and somebody should draw it. The wheels go like this.

It goes... Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Click, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

Click, tick, tick, tick, tick. There's two or three going on at the same time. Somebody should draw it.

[Student]
It's very sexy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Tick, tick, tick, tick. Before it finishes. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

Boom. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And this one's still going and this one's starting.

[Student]
You see what I mean?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's very interesting. [?], that means... I mean, terrible.

But we couldn't just have two, right? Because three, four, five, six, seven and then eight, nine. So, I think, theoretically, there will be four lives.

One, two? We're getting there. Okay.

[Student]
Come on. When he says three, he means the two sets of two and the one?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, he means three plus two. Two plus three. Two plus three.

The first two which hang together and then the next three which hang together making five. He should have said five. Don't name.

Nah, he should have said for a total of five. Okay, here's our next Khachig. Khachig Nare, tendrel yanlak chung gi po te che min dra wa sum la chokpa med ser na Yeah, and here you see almost an artificial debate.

He's just bringing up different stupid guys. The first stupid guy says, you finished all of them in one life. And then we beat that guy.

And then he has, artificially he has another stupid guy. Oh, you can't finish them in two lives. And then he beats that guy.

And then he makes up another guy who comes predictably and says, you can't finish in three lives. How many of these guys are going to have? I mean, we don't know.

So this guy said, you can't complete a set of twelve links in three lifetimes. So what do you have to prove? That you can, which means intervening life.

Okay, we're going to have an intervening life. Which means he's going to collect the karma in the first life and it's not going to get armed until the third life. Very interesting.

Which is why you have a karmic bank account. You have billions of seeds which were never armed in past lives. I don't know, we'll see.

By the way, which means if you were clever you could freeze dry all the bad seeds that never got armed in the last billion lifetimes. And then maybe you could become an arhat. That's how you get out of real life.

Interesting. It's the unarmed ones we're going for. Let's freeze dry the unarmed ones.

You freeze dry them by seeing emptiness directly, for example. Okay, here we go. Okay, here we go.

I'm going to cut it here, okay? Just for you to understand, okay? Just to make it easier, okay?

Deyabhata? How many? Yeah, it is possible for one set of twelve to take three lifetimes because, for example, let's say you have a mi ten, human headquarters, body and mind.

Yeah, and then you sok. You collect karma which is going to throw a deva's body and mind. Heaps, okay?

And then that karma doesn't get armed. It doesn't get armed. That karma doesn't get armed.

By the way, it's very similar to a 32,000 year old Siberian flower seed which never got wet. That's the whole point, okay? And I tried to order this.

I'm having trouble. Nobody wants to send it to me. Then he dies.

Then that human dies and goes on. He died and went on. Then you have to read this together.

LES GZHAN GYI DBANG GIS And then due to the power of some other karmas from way before, he gets MIR GYI. Yeah, and there's the past tense of LEN. He takes a birth as a human because the deva karmas aren't armed yet.

So some older karma kicks in and he has an intervening life as a human. Human, human, deva. Where did he collect the deva karma?

Here, but where did he arm the deva karma? Yeah, it must have been here. Okay, got it?

But Geshe La, just because he then takes on another life as a human doesn't preclude the fact that that is then part of the same wheel. Yeah, I mean, you can... By the way, this part of the wheel could have been the second half of a past wheel.

That's not excluded. That possibility... Different parts of wheels can apply to future parts.

It could apply to the future or apply to the past. Okay, okay.

[Student]
Then, then, then, la.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Then, in that human lifetime, which means the second lifetime, ngar gyi... did you read this part?

[Student]
No.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
ngar gyi la... ngar gyi la'i nam min kyi pungpo pen che kyi le la selen ni kyi sutap si le nyupa thuchen thuchen ne lar kyewa lenpe That's right. I'm going to make it easy for you, okay?

Then, then, then, la, on that second life, okay, in that human, second human life, the karma that was supposed to project the ripened heaps of a deva, he does sutapa. They are armed by two kinds of misunderstanding, and they become nyupa thuchen. Yeah, they get superpower.

And then he's born as a deva in the third life. Therefore, the twelve links can be completed in three lifetimes. Sachi, sachi.

You can use that on him. When he says something stupid and you prove he's stupid, sachi, sachi, sachi. Sometimes, you know, usually a debate like this, but when you get to the end and he finally says something really stupid, you say, sachi.

You turn your hand over. Sachi, sachi. You've got to practice.

It means mota. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Student]
Mota.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Mota. No, you say sachi, which means you should be ashamed to say such a stupid thing. It means you lost the debate.

It's the imperative, shik. You should be ashamed of yourself. Sachi.

Sachi. It doesn't mean sarchic. Some people explain it that way.

Oh, you're finished. It doesn't mean that. It means sarchic.

Not sarchic. But we shorten it. Sarchic.

And then we go like this. Because when you get ashamed, your cheeks get red. So if you ever see a debate and the guy goes like that, he just won, or he thinks he won.

Okay, here we go. YAN LAG CHU NYID PO DE CHE MIN DRA BA SUM LA CHOG PA'I PHYIR TE YAN LAG DANG PO NYID MI CHE DANG PO LA CHOG ZHES LEN ZI PA SUM MI CHE NYID PA LA CHOG KHLAG MA NAM TLA'I CHE LA CHOG PA YIN PA'I PHYIR You can read that. You can read that.

YAN LAG CHU NYID PO DE CHE MIN DRA BA Therefore, YAN LAG CHU NYID, the twelve links, ZHES SUM LA CHOG have been completed in three different lives. Okay, have been completed in three different lives.

[Student]
Yeah, okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then he counts them off. How many links in the first life, how many links in the second life. Okay, in the first life, MI CHE DANG PO, in the first human life, you finish the first two links.

We're finished, period. Then in the second, which life? The human life.

Human life, you finish ZHES RGYAS PA SRED PA, GUS PA LEN PA, CHU PA SRID PA. The arming, the arming links. And the first armed link.

The two arming links and the first armed link were finished in the second human life. And then, there's the old LHAG PA RNAM. The rest of them, which is always the seven, normally.

All those other seven, LHAG'I TSE LA RDZOGS, they're finished in the third life, the deva's life. Okay, cool? Is he gonna come and say four?

No, no, think ahead, think ahead. Then it's so much easier to translate. I bet the next one is the other guy saying, you can't complete the twelve in four.

Let's see. Yeah, guess what? We're gonna debate four lives.

No, and I'm saying a big part of translation is anticipation. What should he say next? Okay.

Now, the word here that's gonna mess you up is PHUL. Say PHUL with a prenasal. PHUL.

It means to make offerings. And that's 99% of the time. 1% of the time, without the prenasal, PHUL.

And if you don't pronounce them differently, you're gonna get it wrong, okay? Because PHUL means in the bubble. Okay, so listen.

PHUL. PHUL. You gotta make the difference, otherwise you'll never be a good translator.

I'll do it again, you ready? PHUL. PHUL.

PHUL. Okay, it's not a B. I said in the bubble.

PHULA. Okay, let's say that. So this PHUL, PHUL means slow.

Slow. And CHITAPUYAN means no matter how slow things go.

[Student]
Okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Slowest possible.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. He says no matter how slow stuff goes, there's not possible four.

[Student]
Okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Even if the whole thing is slowed down, four is impossible. Okay? So, here you go.

KHA CIG NA RE, somebody says DRAN DAL YAN LAG CIG NUS PA DE the twelve links of dependent origination. CHITAPUYAN, the YANG means no matter. No matter how CHITAPU, slow things go, there's no way it's gonna take four lifetimes for one set of twelve.

This is no way. Who said that? So it's...

[Student]
Four is possible.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, we already know four is possible, we just got in here and prove it. Are we out of time? Yes.

Okay, I'm sorry, you'll have to wait until the next life to find out why it can take four.

[Student]
Right, it could even take four lives to find out.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
By the way, what's the next question comes up in your mind? What do you anticipate is gonna be the next section?

[Student]
How about five?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I mean, how many times are you gonna do this?

[Student]
Nine.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I mean, you're gonna go up to nine, twelve. By the way, he stops it. He says, enough, enough.

He goes to the wrong route. You look ahead, he's like, enough, I mean, let's leave it at four.

[Student]
I can't get it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Tha Yepa.

[Student]
Tha Yepa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Okay. Or ninety-nine.

What's the date today, twelve? Twelve. Twenty.

One day after someone's birthday. Uh-oh.

[Student]
Yesterday.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You didn't get a cake for her? Why didn't she get a cake? No, no, yesterday.

You couldn't do a cake today.

[Student]
You think we don't want cake? Nobody else already. Okay, next time.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We'll have cake after the break. Thank you, Geshe La. Happy birthday dear Shinten, happy birthday to you.