Классика Алмазного огранщика: Верхний Срединный путь — Великие книги мудрости, занятие 22

[Student]
I'm Ngönsum and three jepaks.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good. They are, well, what's good for the class? Direct.

Direct.

[Student]
Perception.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Direct perception. What are the three jepaks?

[Student]
Uh, Riggy Nurtle [?].

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Nice.

[Student]
Nurtle Peter. Peter Pop. I think I spelled it backwards.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It'll come up. It'll come up by convention.

[Student]
Logic, authority, and convention.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Bam. Boom, boom, boom. Heh.

Uh, yeah. Reasoning, scriptural authority, and convention. Here's something funner.

What, what witty remark does Gyaltsab Je make regarding the idea that if a mind possesses a discrepancy between what it sees and what is real, then that mind cannot have valid perception?

[Student]
Witty. It's witty.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Clever. Clever.

[Student]
Something like a sheep being shorn in a field or something.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Nope. Nothing about that.

[Student]
I like it. You cannot say it's, there's a discrepancy, discrepancy because you are using the.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's a, it's a. Yeah, yeah. You're going the right way.

[Student]
The thing to say.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Student]
How can you say that there's a discrepancy in that ability to have a valid perception by, and yet you're talking from the thing that is. You're using discrepancy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's hard to put it, it's hard to put it in words, right?

[Student]
You're using logic to establish that you can't use logic.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, that's the easiest way to put it in. I said it, I finally said it like this. Me and Aaron decided in the car.

Are you using conventional perception to prove that the mind cannot have conventional perception?

[Student]
Uh-huh. Yeah. Uh-huh.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. If there is no conventional perception, what does that imply about the Arya path? That we don't, there is no tonglam.

There is no tonglam. Well, yeah, specifically, do you remember what he said? No.

[Student]
I thought that is what he said.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Uh, close. I guess not specifically.

[Student]
I guess not. I thought I did.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah. He says, there's no point in making efforts toward it, because there's nothing that you can do with the senses that you have that can help you get there. Right, right.

So, you know, he says making efforts toward it. Pak-bam-bap, or something like that. Pak-bam-bap-me.

Okay, here's some Tibetan words.

[Student]
This is a weird phrase, isn't it?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Tawa-pen-pa. Tawa-pen-pa. Any hint?

Yeah, it's, well, you guys know what a thalgyur is, right? An implication? Thalgyur?

It's an absurd. Yeah, yeah, yeah, good. And pen-pa, you know what it means?

Projecting? Yeah, so. An absurd projection.

The thing projected by, it's the absurd thing projected by your, implied by your ridiculous idea.

[Student]
I see.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Tawa-pen-pa. I don't know how common that is. Is that common, Geshe La?

Tawa-pen-pa. Fairly common. Okay.

The thing projected by your, parenthesis, ridiculous idea. Tawa-pen-pa.

[Student]
Or implied by. Or projected by.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, projected, because pen-pa.

[Student]
The thing projected by.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
But implied by, I think, is equally.

[Student]
Uh-huh.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This one's for Ben. Wan-po-de-kon-na-yi-che-pe-tse-ma. Oh, man.

Oh, I see.

[Student]
Yeah, wan-po-de-kon-na-yi-che-pe-tse-ma. Uh-huh. Just by, just the power of that logic base, just by the, by your analysis of the power of the thing itself.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Established by your mind and your mind alone? Established by the power of the thing. And thing alone.

Yeah. Deductive-valid perception. It's just a way that they say deductive-valid perception.

I think there's other ways they say it, too, right?

[Student]
That's just one way. Yeah, I'm sure there's 16 of them. I'm going to tell if it's the one we keep getting.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Sorry, these are hard.

[Student]
No, it's good. Tun-nang. Tun-nang.

What you, your parents agrees with? No.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Correct again. I can't remember. Oh, boy.

So I can't give any hints. It's very, it's very close to what it sounds like, but there's another meaning. Tun-nang, it's a...

Oh, yeah, I remember.

[Student]
Now do you have a hint?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, so it's like a... Tun is accordance, right? Nang is appearance, do you know what it is?

No, I don't. It's accordance, appearance, but what does that mean? Like things...

[Student]
Oh, not dual.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, between two... Between two people have the perception, like two people share a perception. Like we're having the same perception.

[Student]
Oh, yeah. It's got to be two people. Common ground.

Oh, common ground. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't have common ground because you're thinking of a self-existent door when I say door choo-choo.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Student]
Cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, these were the most sexy ones. Yeah.

[Student]
Hubba hubba.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then I was requested, because I did this in the last, like, 20 minutes of your class. Oh, you guys check it. Okay, I made a...

This had not been bibliographied yet, Dignaga's Compendium on Valid Perception, so I'll put this in the Dropbox immediately. Dignaga's... Did you know...

Why is it Dign... Yeah, so that's... Oh, there's three Ns, that's a mistake.

Yeah, I was going to say there's a lot of Ns. Start a footnote with... One for Nick.

[Student]
Nick, I probably didn't start a footnote with a number.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I agree.

[Student]
Because it comes right after a number that we maybe can continue. Yeah, cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I like that. I like that. And then, uh...

So I had a Sanskrit... Sorry, man, do I still have a book?

[Student]
How big is the book, bud?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's, uh, 1A to 13A, 13 pages.

[Student]
How many folios?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Thirteen.

[Student]
Oh, I see. Do we do that? Isn't that how we do it?

I think... Yeah. Okay, we don't write the number of folios at the end?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I think we already... We do that for Tibetan books, right?

[Student]
Oh, you're right. Thank you. Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Right. Cool. And then, uh, yeah.

There should be a space after the FF period. What was your footnote? Uh, oh, thank you.

Leave it to Utpal to catch those little things. And there should be a period at the end of that sentence? Which one?

[Student]
The footnote.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The one that you're into.

[Student]
Oh, here? That's interesting.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So should there be a period after convention? Yes. Okay, so those both have periods?

[Student]
You could, if you wanted to, put in... Although that's a complex sentence, so I would leave it there and then have the C in a separate statement. Okay.

And there should be...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then, to be honest with you guys, I just put the whole...

[Student]
There should be another space before C.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah.

[Student]
So we're now putting...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I just put... I just put the whole book. Probably I have to look at the text and figure out exactly which page he's discussing this on.

Because I just didn't have time to do that.

[Student]
We're also now putting ACIP before the ACIP number.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Right, right, right. I know, because I almost fixed that.

[Student]
Uh-huh. Also in the bibliography.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah. Great. Good catch.

[Student]
Do we put a comma after C, bibliography entry number, blah, blah, blah, comma, ACIP? I get nothing.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, no. Okay. Maybe he did in some early bibliography.

I think we had a...

[Student]
I think we do have a comma after... In the footnote, right? After S9.

It's S9 comma ACIP. You sure? Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay.

[Student]
I'm sure that that's how we've done it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Yeah, you know, to be honest, I think I've seen it as a domca [?] amongst Becky Michaels [?]. Right.

I think I've seen it both ways. So you should probably add an extra space before the first letter in the title in your bibliography entry. Can you...

Uh, oh, okay. And then I had a question about this.

[Student]
Um, do you... How'd you get the date on Dignaga?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Uh, from ACI course four.

[Student]
Do you want to give it, I mean, an add symbol since Geshe La hasn't yet had a chance to go through and finalize dates for these?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, are we doing that? Even for dates that we feel pretty...

[Student]
I don't know about the sum we talked about yesterday, but we had some, but we hadn't necessarily sat down and come up with a final for a list of dates based on the lineage prayers. Okay. I don't know.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Who?

[Student]
I don't know if the sum would ask him, but he's...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
But in that case, then we're just going to review all dates, so I don't even see... There's no point in putting add symbols on all of them. We're just...

We're going to fix every date in the bibliographies.

[Student]
Okay, well then why are you putting a percentage sign in front of your bibliography entry?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Because...

[Student]
Well, because they're all...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Because Geshe La told me to.

[Student]
You don't have to listen to me. Special authority.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, we could... Geshe La, do you want... Are we putting at signs on all dates?

Well, not the Tibetan authors' dates, because we know them.

[Student]
Just the Sanskrit authors. Oh, just Sanskrit authors?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, mostly Sanskrit authors. Mostly, including... Until we can work them out.

The only ones I really believe in is 200 AD for Nagarjuna, 350 for Nagarjuna, for Asanga and Vasubandhu. I looked up... Shantideva, 750.

I mean, the C makes... Anyone except for the most famous people is questionable. Dignaga?

I don't happen to know off the top of my head. I think I did figure it out in the... You did in the logic course.

I mean, it was just before Master Dharmakirti. True. And there's a C there, which I guess means circa.

So, I would tend to just leave it at that. All the references online that I saw said 450 AD, but I went with your choice of 440. Actually, yeah.

I'm sure that he probably lived through that whole decade then.

[Student]
We composed this book at 9.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Back then, guys were smart. It was crazy. I did have a question about Dignaga in Sanskrit.

Let me see if I can find it. Here we go. Here, with this...

Can you see that?

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That star? That asterisk? What is that represented by in Diacritics?

I just put this because I wasn't sure.

[Student]
No, the N goes on top, not underneath.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's the dot on top?

[Student]
Yeah, the dot on top.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Or is it the N-E-A on top? No, that's N-Y.

[Student]
So, how do you make that dot on top?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Alt-Option-Z or something?

[Student]
W or Alt-E, I forget which. Got it, W.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There we go.

[Student]
Wow, is that really how it's spelled?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Let me go back to the AC. Here's Lokesh Chandra.

I can't zoom in on Gopher.

[Student]
That's what he seems to say.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah.

[Student]
Cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Cool. Yeah. Okay, I guess I've stalled as much as I possibly can.

[Student]
Do we capitalize the joke N long?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I don't know. That's a good question. I think it's just joke long.

And I think it should be hyphenated. Hyphenated, yeah. Yeah, totally.

Joke long. Yeah, good. Okay.

And on those Pajataks [?], we just capitalized the first letter, right?

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Oh, yeah. Here's something else interesting.

Do you want me to stall for another minute? You don't have to stall. Whenever you're done, let me know.

Well, here's a question. In the title of this baby, Pramana Samuccaya Nama Prakarana. So, prakarana comes after nama.

So, I left it off the title when I put it in my bibliography entry. But I wasn't sure how to... If nama's not at the end, you have to keep it.

Keep nama and then keep the prakarana? Yeah. Okay.

So, fix that, too. Oh, that's good to know. Don't trust the Tibetan Sanskrit at all.

Always look it up in Lokesh Chandra. He is a good scholar. And I rarely, rarely, rarely see a mistake.

And you never heard me say that about anybody.

[Student]
No, really. Yeah, yeah. He's really good.

Boss, I think it's prakarana.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, right.

[Student]
Which is the dot underneath.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Right, okay. Excellent. Got it, yeah, yeah.

And then there's this prakarana, right? This is a long A.

[Student]
I'd have to look again.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. I'm pretty sure it is. I'll check later.

Just not to use so much time. Did you get the list of the special characters? The diacritics?

There is a list somewhere. So then I would leave the Sheja way around to Jaipa in the Tibetan? Yeah, exactly.

Sheja way around to Jaipa.

[Student]
Extended ABC.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
What do you guys think? Sheja is a hyphen?

[Student]
Sheja.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Sheja way.

[Student]
Three.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Student]
I wouldn't put the hyphen backwards.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You wouldn't?

[Student]
No.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's not a word, Sheja. Shejawa is not a word? Uh-uh.

Okay. And then Jawa. Okay.

[Student]
We'll see. We'll see if the boss has done this before.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Let's see. We need to have a vote. It sounds so familiar to me.

It used to be.

[Student]
Yeah, I know.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Three syllables. Three syllables? Okay, I'm keeping it.

[Student]
It's our standard, it looks like.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Three syllables wins.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And that's how you do a bibliography entry. Okay, I'm ready. For you to take over the plane.

[Student]
I could stall a little bit more.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You distinctly told us not to stall. Is there a way to make this AD shorter or just use a smaller font?

[Student]
I just used a smaller font. I don't think he gets it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, it's hit font. There's a special way to do it? Yeah, hit format, hit font, hit small caps.

Oh, drop cap, this thing? Small caps. Small caps.

[Student]
Go to font, first in the list.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Uh-huh. Wait, so maybe I should put it back to the regular size. I'm glad I asked this question.

[Student]
I thought you were teasing me.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, I was being serious. You know, I was doing this while Geshe La was teaching, so I was like, sorry, Geshe La. I didn't want to disappoint you guys here.

[Student]
And then, what was your effect? Oh, click small caps, which you already have.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, yeah, it's already clicked. That's why I was confused. I did look at this.

[Student]
Say okay and see what happens.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Nope. So that was the first thing I tried.

And then I thought maybe there was some special...

[Student]
And you're impeding on the type.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I sure am. Maybe it's because I need to update my version of Microsoft Word. No.

I'm putting it back to 10 for now. You guys are no help.

[Student]
I wouldn't do that. Instead, let's figure out how to fix it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Well, I want to translate some text today. I know what you mean, Betz. Leave it to your editor.

I know. I'll leave it to you. By the way, can we talk sometime after the term about making sure I have the right version of Word?

[Student]
He's really desperate now. I understand.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Let's sing. Chah-tee-dee-nin-tah.

[Student]
So how are things?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Chah-tee-dee. You can put me on and I'll...

[Student]
No, you have to.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Okay. 30 years ago, 40 years ago, I got a good teaching on the eight features of Prasangika.

He has ten.

[Student]
That's right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He calls them the ten differences between Prasangika and Rangyupa. But there's a list of eight and they're very famous. So I'm just going to find it.

I'm sorry. It's cool. No need to apologize.

We like it. We're into it. So people keep referring to this and I want it.

Okay. Ten-gir-pe tu-mu-moy-e-pe ke-che-ge-gi-sin-ti. Lecture notes taken on the subject of the eight special features which are unique to the Prasangika.

His list of ten has derived from that. Tsongkapa mentions this book. So it must have been before him.

Or maybe he wrote it. Maybe somebody can go into reference into Ming Tzu [?] or Shater [?] and try to find it for me. Or you could try TBRC.

Okay, what you're looking for is there. What are we looking at? Is this...

Ten-gir-pe tu-mu-moy-e-pe ke-che-ge-gi-sin-ti. Look for sin-ti near ke-che-ge. Ke-che-ge-gi-sin-ti.

Ke-che means unique features. Ke means eight. Sin-ti means the notes taken by somebody.

They must be famous because people keep mentioning them. When you're really desperate, write Art Engle. And I did already.

I didn't get an answer yet. That would be pretty fast. Rinpoche taught it to us and I cannot remember where it comes from.

And I can't find it. Okay. Okay.

So I'm going to keep looking here. Ten-gir-pe tu-mu-moy-e-pe ke-che-ge. Wow.

TBRC.

[Student]
Yeah, there's a couple of texts there.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's not something Indian. Come on out. This is from 1933.

Who wrote it? Norjong Ogyen. No.

Ogyen's already not gone. Yeah. Unassociated books.

[Student]
Wow. Spellcheck just corrected me to cure. It's learned.

Well, that's cool. It is cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, I found a match. Nope. Dang.

It's not in Shenzhen terms [?], I guess, huh?

[Student]
No.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Lodro Lekzang. Lodro Lekzang? Yeah.

You found it in there? He's good. Yeah.

Umar Lajupe. Yeah. Yeah?

Yeah. Lodro Lekzang. He's excellent.

Let's see. What is it? It's a book?

Yeah. Yes, sir. Let's see.

Kunkhyen Lodro Lekzang Gi Sungbum Umar Lajupe Chiren Gombarapsel Giken. Umar Lajupe Chiren Gombarapsel. Something's in there though.

How do you know it's in there? Is a chapter in there or something?

[Student]
Yeah, well, just it hit on the words, let's see.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Tum-dra-pa?

[Student]
Let's see, here's another one.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Anywhere else you can think of to look at in our reference section? You can watch me look for it. I mean, you might learn something.

Tum-dra-pa?

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Not as good as the other one. Lodro Lekzang would be excellent. Lodro Lekzang would be great.

If you just give me the scans, I can teach you from the scans. Of course. I can't find it.

Doesn't seem like we have it in our catalog. Did you check St. Pete or anything like that? Not that it mattered.

I'll check. Okay, just so not to waste your time. Let's flirt with it, and I'll go find it, okay?

I've got some lesser explanations. I'd rather find some kappa. Oh, this is a really good one.

Yeah, it is. By the way, it'd be fun to teach from a scan.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Just so you guys get used to it a little bit.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Should I just download the full PDF and Dropbox? Is there a page number they identify as where it starts? Yeah, it's a whole chapter, and I just went ahead and pulled the whole chapter.

He's amazing. So, if you can give me those scans, that'd be beautiful. I didn't know he wrote a book about it.

He wrote the best Vinaya book ever. And he's a sleeper. Nobody knows about him.

[Student]
We'll come across him a couple times.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, he's amazing. So, if you can get that, that'd be perfect for his appendix. He's amazingly thorough.

Send it to me as well. Yeah, I'd like to have it double-checked just to make sure it is what I think it is. Show me the first scan.

Is there a page before it? No. Oh, there it is.

Oh, beautiful. Let's teach from that. Cool.

It's beautiful. He's a genius. That's the best.

I'm excited. Wow. We did get halfway through.

[Student]
I know.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We'll come back to that.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
By the way, he's got two more than most people. Okay. See, he phrased it as differences between the Prasangika and the Lama Gyupa.

Gyatsojit. Yeah, here. Right.

But classically, it's called the Eight Special Features of Prasangika. And most of them are as opposed to the Lama Gyupa. Yeah.

How are you going to get that to me? I'll just airdrop it to you. Yeah, airdrop.

That means I have to do my advanced forget-the-1960s thing. They didn't have this in the 60s?

[Student]
Which 60s? The 18s or the 19s?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
17s? Or you can just airdrop it to me. Yeah, I'll do that.

Aren't I here? Me too, please. If I can use it.

Am I not here?

[Student]
No, no, no.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Instead of me trying to find it in TBRC. Okay. If it's the Lodro Lekzang, I think it is, then you're in Fat City.

[Student]
I think it's your computer that demands to use that picture of you.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which one? Of you? Uh-huh.

Are you playing the air guitar? Basically. Or are you telling someone, come on, try and delete me.

Yeah, it's what it looks more like.

[Student]
So what do I do now? Accept it. I accept it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and then go to the downloads. You can organize it by most recent. How do I do that?

Actually, you know, I just, I toggled it, Lodro Lekzang, Eight Inequalities of the Consequent School, so there it is. Okay, so that's going over to Nick. And we should have it in print, right?

Yeah, I'll put it in there. And I apologize for the delay. I had, last night I was having a party with some guy online, Nick.

Don't worry. He's trying to get this done.

[Student]
The real estate agent's coming now at 6.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh yeah, I heard about that. Got it, Adam, thank you. What's his name?

Thank you for finding it. Lodro Lekzang. We had fun last night getting it all worked out.

Yeah. Word of Newt Powell [?] put in a late night. Tim, why?

All you had to do was... Oh, we had to split it into three and... We had to figure out how to split the volume.

[Student]
Oh, that was nice.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We had to create new titles, covers, table of contents. Okay, I apologize for the delay. Let's go.

So this book by this author is... There you go. Let's read it.

Tan gyur... Tan gyur wei tun mong ma yin pey ka ne sop she pa. Translate.

Okay. Tan gyur... Tan gyur wei tun...

So this is the ma yin... Difficult points not shared. An explanation of difficult points that are not shared with the Prasangika school.

Yeah, so this tun mong ma yin pey means unique. Unique to.

[Student]
Yeah, unique to.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Difficult points unique to the Prasangika. Oh, isn't it not? No, it's unique to.

[Student]
It's of the Prasangika with tun mong ma yin.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, okay. Got it. Tun mong ma yin, thank you.

Sop she pa. Somebody's got to search for this line. Tan gyur...

Kang gyur rang... Kang gyur rang shin... It might be tan gyur, it might be tun mong ma yin.

We have... It's definitely somewhere. Kang gyur rang shin gi te te mi ka...

No. Ka pa she sok lo... Shlo.

Shlo. Yeah.

[Student]
Shlo ka. Got it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Shlo ka chik ga gi kap su ngar far sum... Tar. Tar sum.

Tar. Tar sum le dang po. Okay.

Okay. So, this is poetry. He's quoting some verse.

A single verse.

[Student]
He tells us it's a single verse.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Shlo ka chik. Yeah, shlo ka is the Sanskrit word for a verse. Usually four lines of Tibetan.

Usually two lines of Sanskrit. But the meter is standard. Da ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba.

Or ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. Okay. Kang gyur rang shin gi te men ga pa.

Did you find it? No. Come on.

[Student]
Sorry, I didn't find it. In the text here.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I wasn't looking because... Someone wrote a verse about the eight qualities. I didn't find it.

We'll look for it later. Okay. Okay.

For the reason that they don't deny by its own nature. We don't know what he's talking about yet. Okay.

This one verse, in context of this verse, okay, as I gave above three sections, I already treated the first one. Here's the second one. This is the crux of the matter.

The second, yes. Let's do this one. The system of the prasangikas.

Yeah. Drupthana. The comparative philosophies, the schools.

Of the ten gyurwas. The school of the prasangikas. Tsongpa chepa means which typify or exemplify.

Okay. Tsongpa chepa, which exemplify. There are eight great positions.

Dhammacak.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And we're going to identify them.

[Student]
Wow.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Nice. Okay. Okay.

Hang on. Slow down.

[Student]
Sorry.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I think he says he did it earlier. Panjyiki. So he promised to identify the eight great positions.

Today he's going to talk about three subjects, okay? Panjyiki le shikpe. The ending of a projected karma.

The stopping of a projected karma itself has a result. Wow. Death.

Okay. How is it that stopping of a panjyiki le creates a karmic result? How is it that the stopping of a karma creates a karmic result?

That's a conundrum? Okay. How can the stopping of a karma create a result?

And if it doesn't stop, how could it create a result?

[Student]
Yeah, okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And du sung gi nam shak means they have a unique presentation on time. Three times? Past, present, and future.

They have a unique presentation. The prasangika.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Sumle. Of these three, okay? Uh-huh.

Where are we? I'm sorry. Of these three subjects.

Sumle. Ah, sumle. First subject, the eight great positions.

Uh-huh. Second subject, how is it that when a karma stops, it can cause a result? Yeah.

And third, how do we explain the three times? Yeah. These are thorny issues.

Yeah. Okay? And one of the three that we're interested in is the first one.

Yeah. Okay, where are we? And he says, tabo ni di shing del tu gyur pa she sin.

I already talked about that. I already talked about it.

[Student]
Uh-huh.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We've got to go find a previous volume of his work. I already talked about that. Well, this is page 289.

Okay. I mean, I can go and see if I can find it. Yeah.

This is the whole section out of the book that was called... He doesn't treat it here. Wow.

Oh, wow. Interesting. What is its...

Like, what's its short term? Other books in this? Of what?

All I got is the title of the section, which is supposed, purported to be the... It just says, difficult, unique ideas of the Prasangika.

[Student]
No, but he talks about the eight.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
All he said was, I'm going to teach you the three things. The first is the eight. The second is how karma stops and creates a result.

How many pages is this? The third is... Well, I'm on page 290.

Within the 17 pages. No, but he said I already talked about it earlier.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So we have to find the previous volume of his...

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Of his collected works, perhaps? If you get me all the scans of this book, I can find it.

[Student]
Yeah. I'll do that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This is Lodro Lekzang again? Yeah. Do we have his collected works?

No. We have one Vinaya book by him, which is the best book ever written on Vinaya. Should we do all this?

[Student]
So I like this. I mean, if you see his... I have a crush on this guy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Especially if it's a Pecha.

[Student]
Yeah. No, it's not.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's not going to be. B-L-O... B-L-O...

L-E-G-S-B-Z-A-N-G. B-L-O-G-R-O-S. L-E-G-S-B-Z-A-N-G.

Yongzhi is a concept where... It's like Adam's double pancake flip. And sometimes it's called Rangzhi Yongzhi or something like that.

But it means where you establish something by illumination. Okay. Okay.

So whether or not we can take positions based on the illumination of things. Okay. Excluding.

Excluding, yeah. We can establish, we can take a position. Number seven.

These are interesting to Gyaltsab Je because he was a logician. He was a logician first. Yeah.

He sure was. Can you deny... Do we accept the feasibility of simply denying another's position without asserting our own?

Is it feasible to deny another's positions without laying out your own?

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
They say, they say. Cool. I don't understand the wording of number eight.

Thaeyonggyur Gyuptamcham means the assertion of the thaeyonggyur. Okay. Simple assertion of the thaeyonggyur doesn't exist in the law.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I don't know what it refers to. I'd rather see an explanation. Next one's easy.

Sangye La Ranggigi Yeshe Killen Nyen Can we or can we or should we not accept that a Buddha can have wisdom in their mind? And that's a serious debate by some people.

[Student]
I don't know what the problem is yet.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and he doesn't go into them. I've read ahead and he doesn't clarify. He just makes comments about them.

He doesn't treat them. He just lists them and then he makes a few arguments about them. But not all of them.

Ranggigi Killen Nyen, that's easy. Oh, I'm sorry, that's weird. Number 10?

[Student]
Do we accept our perception or not?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, do we or do we not accept our perception.

[Student]
Which we assume is the answer is no. It would be a big surprise if we decide yes. Oh, directly?

No.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, you want to keep going? No. I'm a blind reading the book.

Keshav [?], did you look in Ben's book? Because that one's not catalogued, but his comparative philosophy probably might get into the differences between them. It's possible.

[Student]
I have this book for you that you like.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I like Lodro Lekzang.

[Student]
For me to give it to you, I need your air drop, but I can give it to you later. I can't seem to, it's too big for me to email to you.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You want a flash drive? Let's do it later.

[Student]
Let's do it later.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Dela Chin Minyini. It's tempting to say the last two were tacked on.

Because traditionally it's eight. So he says the latter two, the last two, is equivalent to establishing the difference between Prasangikas and Svatantrikas. Bawa Longme.

I'm not even sure it's spelled correctly. Bawa Longme. It's some kind of weird thing.

I've never heard of it. I'm suspicious about it. We can just do words, but I don't like it.

It doesn't make sense to me. But anyway, it says, whether or not they can have an opposition. So he's referring to that one, I guess.

If you establish a difference between physical matter and mind, it's just something pretty to do. So, you know, I don't know what he's talking about. You want to just keep going with your words, we can...

Whatever you think will be the most helpful. We can take Ben's text and just pull it up on the screen and take a look at that. Let me do it myself, because it's going to take a long time.

Let's do words, okay? Six and seven. Let me cut this somewhere.

[Student]
The two of six and seven.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Six and seven are what? Are they incorrect? Something about that position based on exclusion.

And whether or not you can deny another person's position without taking one yourself. Something about them are incorrect. Yeah.

They are also problems with number six and number seven. Yeah. Kutub chupay kap sung means when you limit your examination to deceptive reality.

We already had dun dam chupay kap, right? So if you're limiting your discussion to deceptive reality, kap sung, yong chuk gi dam ja, a position which is characterized by what you deny. Okay?

Rang luk dang kye way kyang kye lan. Our own... Those who accept Prasangika as their own school, they already accept that.

Okay? And if you're talking about the concept of exclusion to a state of mind which is operating in logic, rigmor, this might be misspelled. Rigmor.

Okay. Yeah. If it's rig, it means something totally different.

It should be rig, yeah. Yong chuk rang gi bay kyang kye mi len te. Okay.

Anyway, the Svatantrikas never accepted that one anyway. So how can you say it's a difference between the two? It's somehow a defective list maybe, you see?

That's why I'd rather get the correct list. He's just criticizing you. I've got a hit in the uncataloged data.

Kun chok gyel tun. Kun chok gyel tun. Let me see it.

But I prefer Lopun Lekten than Lopun Yen Yen. Yeah, it doesn't explain it. Okay.

Go ahead, read. Where were we? Right here.

Sher chin la mi. Sher chin? No, Lopun.

Lopun. Lopun chenpo. Lekten.

Cheki. Njeki. Suki kyewa me do.

Nyam du chuna. Sher chin la chuki. Suki kyewa me pa.

Yut to. I'm sorry. It's okay.

Nyam na. Sher chin la mi. Chu te.

Te. Okay, this is weird. Suki kyewa me do.

Nyam du. When you think to yourself, physical matter never starts. Okay?

We can say that your mind is operating in the mode of the perfection of wisdom. Okay. Okay.

But when you say there does exist the fact that matter doesn't start, okay, you are not operating in the perfection of wisdom. Okay? Let's say it again.

Suki kyewa me do. Nyam du chuna. If you examine things and say there is no starting of physical matter, physical matter never exhibits starting, then your mind is operating in the perfection of wisdom.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
But if you say it this way, there does exist the absence of starting among physical matter, then you are not operating in the perfection of wisdom. Okay. If you do say that there does exist physical matter?

[Student]
Start.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There does exist. Sorry. A physical matter.

Uh huh. That's not, that's not examining emptiness anymore.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Maybe because it's operating in a positive and not a negative.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Got it? Yeah.

Because the first one was what? Uh, if, yeah, you're saying that it just never started.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There does not exist any starting of things. Right. Of physical things.

[Student]
Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's wisdom alone.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There does exist an absence of starting for physical things. That's not wisdom mode anymore. Okay.

Med ched de, ringor kyewa koppa yin kyi, kye me mi dupar sumpe chen. What we are doing is refuting the idea that, and now I, now I accept it as riks. You see why it's riks?

Okay. It is riks. Okay.

To the, to a mind operating in logic, okay, riks more. To a mind operating in logic, we are denying starting of things. Okay.

But, it's not that we are establishing that nothing starts. Okay. We're disproving that things could start, but we're not proving that nothing starts.

In the perfection of wisdom mode? We don't know yet.

[Student]
Right. In the perfection of wisdom mode.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We're not proving that things don't start.

[Student]
We're not proving that things don't start. We're proving that it's not true that they start.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Got it.

[Student]
We're disproving that they start, but we're not proving.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Proving that they don't start. That they don't start. It's time, Geshe La, that we could do a little more.

[Student]
You want to wander in one line?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
One more line. One more line. Where are we?

De na. You want to read? De na.

I'm sorry. I didn't prepare. I didn't have time.

De na. Te chok ni dang po tar yin la. Te yang chö chen ma.

Ton nang yö me yin te. Rang gyú ki tak yö me ni. Tar ngol chik ngol gi ton nang du shi chö chen.

Drup ma drup la rak le pey chi ro. Okay, de na te chok ni dangpo tar yin la. Therefore, the correct position is according to the former and not the latter.

De yang chok chen la tenang yin me yin te. And that also relates to the question of whether the two parties in an argument ever see the object under consideration as the same thing.

[Student]
There's mixed vocabulary.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Wang gi kyi tar yin me ni. And the discussion of whether there even exists a truly independent reason, meaning one that can operate from its own accord, depends upon, rak le, the question of whether or not the two debaters can even see a common object.

Yeah, that's beautiful. So he's tying them all together. Yeah, right.

Somehow he's tying them all together. Yeah. Rak le hear this question?

Sorry? Oh, rak le pa means depends upon. Yeah, depends upon.

Yeah. It's an old word for temba. Rak le pa.

There were 61 hits for to gyur wa to mo ma yin pe kye choy gye. And they all got a load. Oh, boy.

Okay. All right. Again, I'm sorry I didn't.

I want to do a nice job on the eight because they're sexy. I'm afraid what happens is they spend 20 pages on the first one.

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then they throw in the other nine. It's hard to find a list that someone just gave eight. Thank you.

Sachi. Kyewa di kyewo kun. Tsenam yeshe tsasro shing.

Tsenam yeshe le jung we. Tamba kun gyi topar shug. Shmoky dung.

Why are we on these eight in the middle of a text about the Hinayana? Because we're talking about Prasangika reasoning. Yeah.

[Student]
Rangu.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He started talking about independent reasons. Why did he start talking about Rangu? He just said Rangu.

And then he was like, oh, by the way, the Rangupas. I forgot why he was talking about Rangu. I said, while we're on the subject, let's discuss the differences.

[Student]
Well, because he was talking about whether or not offering the reasoning that if things were the way they appeared, then everyone would already be free. And is that a Rangupa or is it a Thonggyurwa?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, right. The older Tibetan commentator named... Shantungpa.

He said it's not a Thonggyur. He's like, that's not even a Thonggyur. It's a Rangupa.

It's not a Thonggyur or a Rangla Drakpa Tantric. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Self-powered question posed to oneself. Right. Rather, it's a...

Independent reason. It's an independent reason. I mean, guilt just starts coming off on it.

[Student]
Yeah.