Вордсмит — Книга 2: Трудные места школы «Ум только», занятие 18

[Speaker 2]
Okay, let's do the homework. According to our texts, how many number divisions are there to divide seeds? That makes sense.

It just made sense in my head. What are those numbers? Stanley's right, four.

What are they, Stanley?

[Student]
Tuga.

[Speaker 2]
Tuga. Gwe. Gwe.

Shema. Shema.

[Student]
Somebody help.

[Speaker 2]
There's outer. No, no, no, no, no, no. Number divisions.

What are the numbers?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
How many divisions are there?

[Speaker 2]
I made it really simple. Yeah. Four ways to divide into four.

No, there's two ways to divide into four.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There's four numbered groups. How many in each group? Four.

That's the last two groups. How about the fourth group?

[Speaker 2]
The other two are?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Take me to your people.

[Speaker 2]
I tried to make the homework easy. I failed. The other two are three and six.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. It starts with six, goes to three, and then two set to four. Yep.

[Speaker 2]
Yep. Okay. Maybe this one will be better.

What is the way of dividing them into six? This is your answer, Tim. Go for it.

So it's outer. Yep. Yep.

And there's two kinds of unclear ones. Which we're unclear about. Exactly.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
There's ones that, one can be the deceptive seeds.

[Speaker 2]
Yep.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The outer and then inner ones that are ultimate.

[Speaker 2]
Yay. Perfect. Beautiful.

Amazing. And last question. And this is the Tibetan.

What texts does Je Tsongkapa, texts does Je Tsongkapa use to back up his thoughts on the ways to divide seeds and what are their authors? This is significant because this is basically the texts Je Tsongkapa uses for most everything in this book. So.

Mahayana Sangraha. Yeah. Who wrote that one?

What's it in Tibetan? Asanga. What is it in Tibetan?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I mean, Lord Maitreya wrote it and then Master Asanga wrote it down. No. Oh no?

It's not one of the five books. Oh. It's just Master Asanga.

Yep.

[Student]
A summary of the greater way.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So Tibetan.

[Student]
Tekpachempo Dupa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Hot, hot. You're hot.

Dode Gen, Ornament of the Sutras. No, that's a different book. Yeah.

Oh no, I thought also, because it says texts.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we have other, do we have another two texts that's not one of them?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh yeah. Then we have two commentaries to Mahayana Sangraha.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, exactly.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I don't remember.

[Student]
Let's see. Tekpachempo Dupa Shejar.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's the second one. Yeah.

[Student]
Lopun Genyen Tsupa Ngowo Nyi Mepa. Is the author.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, Ngowo Nyi Mepa. And then one of the last one, the author's actually disputed on the last one, but it's probably this person that you all know. Stanley definitely knows him.

Sugeng's getting to know him pretty well. Yeah. Big hints.

[Student]
Vasubandhu?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, Vasubandhu, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And the text name may be from someone's notes.

Maybe not.

[Student]
Tsangwa Namparchewa Dute Shepa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, perfect answer.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, Tsangwa is usually what it's called. It's just a secret. 30 verses.

30 verses, a different book. Here we go, the explanation. Yay.

I think this is our provisional probability.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, it's very likely Asvabhava. Yeah, that's very likely his name. There's not many other translations of that word, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. And my homework-y thingy that I did kind of well.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh my gosh, this is hard. Actually, it's quite, let me see.

[Speaker 2]
I changed it like seven times, I don't know.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Yeah, okay, it's all good. It's just, the dorduna means, to put it briefly, you could divide it into three or you could divide it into four, you should view it as being something you can divide into three or you should view it as something you can divide into four, okay?

Okay, but you did a good job. Otherwise, you know, I was looking over your text again, because I, again, I apologized for the last class. I thought I did not do a good job in the last class, or your last class.

And this sentence is a quotation, and he doesn't tell you, okay?

[Speaker 2]
I saw your notes that it was a quote.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've been working on it steadily. It's a hard section.

It's a really hard section, okay? But you did a good job on it, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so the whole thing is?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, let me check the second part.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Peda bhajan, namaskar, namaste, namaste. And the way we should divide seeds into three, or three distinct things, namaste. Namaste.

The seeds, which are most precious. Namaste. How's that three?

Good, not bad, not bad, yeah, yeah. Now, just one comment. Seeds cannot perceive.

So you gotta say seeds for perceiving, you see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah, I had something like that before, too.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, okay, good, good, that's all. And, yeah, okay.

[Student]
That would be the same for the other ones, right? Because they're not mental verbalizations either, are they?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's correct, yeah. Seeds for mental verbalization, or they're actually seeds which are, we're gonna talk about it. You might wanna say relating to verbalization or something.

That's a cheap way to get out of it. And, cheda kyi so, means the seeds can be divided according to these three characteristics, okay?

[Student]
That's all. Maybe a seed could be a link for suffering life? We're gonna talk about it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's a huge discussion. It'll take us a long time to get through these three, okay? It's a very difficult subject, but Word did a perfect job on it so far, okay?

It's perfect, okay? And, again, it smells like a quotation, doesn't it?

[Student]
Well, it's got shepa tarsuno there, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah.

[Student]
Wouldn't that be like, before that's the end of the quote, and then this is saying this quote says the three like that?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Exactly, exactly, yeah. Ken? Yeah?

[Speaker 2]
I was struggling with cheda kyi nampa. You said characteristics is more accurate?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Well, boy, this is gonna be a difficult section, but basically, the three seeds here are named from the three particulars, chedaks, of kunshi.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, so, okay. I tried aspects too, so would aspects be better?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Aspects is not bad, but the point is, the point of the word chedak here is that kunshi is divided into three parts. It's divided according to three characteristic types. And seeds, the division of the seeds follows from the divisions of the kunshis.

So three kunshis, three chedaks, three particular types of kunshi are recognized, and therefore, there's three kinds of seeds which created them. Okay, so it's a backwards thing. And it's not evident from this quotation yet, okay?

But we'll get to it, okay? These three divisions of seeds are based on three different parts of kunshi. And then that's a long story, okay?

And this is a very difficult section. Okay, yeah, but you did a good job on the translation, yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yay, I did it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, you did a very good job on the translation. Okay, all right, let's go have some suffering together. Okay.

Your class should be in the morning. It's a hard one, but I guess it's morning in Asia.

[Speaker 2]
It's morning. It's always morning somewhere. It's morning somewhere.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, you got to turn off your screen sharing, Dr. Woon. Okay. Okay, here we go.

Fasten your seat belts. You know, I'm not satisfied with these six, and I want to go through them. I want to go through them one more time, okay?

Okay. So the first one is super easy. When you divide seeds into six, there's outer seeds, which is physical seeds in the world, like rice seeds, wheat seeds, stuff like that.

Okay, that's easy. That's the only easy part. Then there's inner seeds, like the seed part of the kunshi, of the foundation consciousness.

Okay, that's clear. Then there's, and Sugeng made a very valuable contribution last time. Then there's the two unclear types, okay?

And there's a huge discussion about what are the two kinds of unclear seeds, or what does that mean? And we're going to talk about that later. Okay.

And then look how far down we have to go. Dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. Dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig.

There's number five, as Tim pointed out, and I don't know how Tim remembers all this stuff. Deceptive seeds, okay? By the way, when we're on the subject of deceptive seeds, what's the ultimate deception in the mind-only school?

[Speaker 2]
Isn't there like four of them?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
But just generally, based on the mind-only school's description of the Gakcha.

[Speaker 2]
I would say the most famous one is... Stanley, quiet. The most famous one is, you think things aren't just manifestations of the kunshi.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, but who, did Stanley say outside objects? I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, he said words.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, that's the one I'm looking for. Okay, so when you say deceptive seeds, it's probably going to be seeds for outside objects, for things to appear as outside, like blue, like blue, or like a microphone, or like computer, or stuff like that, a cell phone. The seeds that created those.

Okay, got it? Those are called deceptive. They're not what they seem.

And then everything else is dendabe seed, means inner seeds that are creating the blue, okay? The actual inner seeds, okay? So that's okay.

Now, I was really, I don't know, I got frustrated, and I want to review these six. Okay, here we are. The first thing to say is that this list is not a real list.

It's all mishmash, you know? It's not like there's six different kinds. They cross over.

There's three different crossovers, four or five different crossovers. It's not that there's six different kinds here. And it's not that one is general, one is more specific.

They're all mixed up. And it makes it hard, okay? So outer is clear.

Those are physical seeds. Inner is clear. Those are the ones in your storehouse consciousness, okay?

Then there's two kinds of karmically neutral seeds, okay? They're unclear because they're unspecified. And lung ma ten means they were never clarified.

So it doesn't mean they can't be seen clearly or something like that. It means Buddha never made it clear. They're neutral.

They're karmically neutral. And we can't call them on either side of the fence. Are they creating samsara or are they creating enlightenment?

It's unclear, okay? They don't really do either, okay? And then there's a second kind of unclear seeds.

They're also karmically neutral. And they're between good deeds and bad deeds, okay? Okay, they're not good deeds and they're not bad deeds, all right?

Then there's the fake seeds. The seeds for things being fake, that's easy. Any seed for an outside object, it's called a fake seed because what it creates is mistaken for outside, okay?

Got it? You guys okay so far? It's awfully quiet.

Hello? Okay, good. And then there's ultimate seeds, okay?

Which is easy. Any seed that's not creating an outside object, if you want to say it simply, okay? Now, these are all messed up.

They all overlap each other. Then you get more trouble. There are two commentaries to the Mahayana Sangraha.

By the way, the Mahayana Sangraha is the one where these six are presented by Asanga, okay? And this is... By the way, I did study a nigger [?], I think somebody mentioned.

It is not one of the five books of Maitreya. Sorry. It's by Asanga himself, okay?

And as word noted, the first commentary, which is called Secret Meaning, is probably not by Master Vasubandhu, according to the author of the catalog to the Derge Tengyur, who was a smart guy. And we don't know who the author was. And then Shejar, this other commentary on Mahayana Sangraha, was written by this lay person named Asvabhava, okay?

Now, the part I wanted to go through, word, is that he says, the second from Shejar, and when I was reading it more carefully, what he's saying is, Shejar gives two explanations about this question. So he's not talking about the second of the six categories. He's talking about the first explanation from Shejar, and then the second explanation from Shejar, okay?

So according to maybe Vasubandhu's text, in the first half of Shejar, three of these types of seeds are shar chung tsam. Say, shar chung tsam. Shar chung tsam.

Shar chung means incidental and not the main thing, okay? And we learn shar chung, it means on the way to the... If you go to the college from Rimar, please go shar la to Clark's Grocery Store and pick up a few things, okay?

So shar la means by the way. It means not the main point. Not the main point.

So if we follow Sugeng's great advice, and we number the six correctly, then one, three, and five. Seeds for outer things, seeds for karmically neutral things, which are neither enlightened or samsaric, and fake seeds for things that seem like they're outside, okay? Those three are not...

They are only not very important, okay? Not the main thing, okay? They are not the main seeds.

Shar chung means they're just kind of secondary. They're like second team seeds, okay? They are shar chung tsam, okay?

The second explanation in Shejar says that they are, sorry, it says they are shar chung without the tsam, and it was never talking about number two of the six anyway. So explanation number two in Shejar drops the tsam, okay? Without the tsam.

So it just means they're secondary, but they're not unimportant, okay? They're not just secondary, okay? The first explanation from Shejar says that unclear means karmically neutral, and that two under discussion is inner and outer, seeds for inner and outer, okay?

It doesn't relate to enlightened or samsara, okay? And the second explanation from Shejar says kun shi itself takes... Think of seeds as modifications of foundation consciousness, okay?

Everything you see, the things that are creating blue in your life is kun shi, and the blue in your life is?

[Student]
Kun shi.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Kun shi, okay? Everything's kun shi. And kun shi is like a movie.

Kun shi is playing the seeds, and kun shi is playing the results, okay? So, you know, kun shi creates... Kun shi is the seeds, and kun shi is the blue.

So when you look at blue coming from seeds in the... You're just seeing kun shi become kun shi. You okay?

You guys okay? Quiet, quiet.

[Student]
A different form of kun shi?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah. Everything is kun shi. Cause and effect is kun shi.

That's the point here, okay? Seeds themselves are kun shi, and everything that comes out of the seeds is also just kun shi. So it's like the left hand and the right hand of the same guy.

All the seeds that create everything in the world are kun shi. And everything kun shi creates is also kun shi, okay? Therefore, these other divisions are like unimportant.

One, three, and five. Outer, enlightened, samsaric. Outer in the sense of fake appears to be outer.

They are all unimportant. The only real seeds are two and four, and six, okay? That's shejar, okay?

The only important seeds are the inner seeds, number two, and the good and bad karma, the plant seeds, number four. And ultimate seeds, where what they produce is what they seem to be, and not fake, okay? So one, three, and five are not serious seeds.

They're half-assed seeds. Two, four, and six are real seeds, okay? And that's what shejar is saying, okay?

It's very difficult. It's very difficult. Four is real, not just by the way, because it involves inner seeds, okay?

Karma, good karma, and bad karma. Six is real, because it's not creating a fake outer object. For example, it could be creating tomorrow's kunshi, okay?

So that's real. But one, three, and five are not so real. They're just kind of footnotes.

Shar chung means they're just footnotes, okay? Seeds for outer stuff, it doesn't really matter, because it's not outer. Seeds for samsara and enlightenment, not so important.

That's not good karma and bad karma. It's the result of good karma and bad karma. And number five is not so important, because those are fake seeds that are producing objects that everyone mistakes for being outside.

So those three categories are incidental. They're not named. But two and four and six are important, because those are the seeds that are creating the other things, okay?

You guys okay? It's awfully quiet. Now I'll ask you a question where they came up in my mind really strong during this, while I was working this out.

Is a seed gewa or mi gewa?

[Speaker 2]
Unclear.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Now listen, it's a big, big question, and you got to think about it. A seed is planted by hurting someone or helping someone, by good karma and bad karma. But is the seed itself good or bad?

[Speaker 2]
Lungma Ten, neutral.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good, good, okay. All right, so can you divide seeds into virtue and non-virtue?

[Speaker 2]
Not both of them.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Neither one. They are result of good deeds and bad deeds. They are not good deeds and bad deeds, okay?

Got it? They're always neutral. Stanley's text says that all karmic results are neutral.

All karmic results are neutral. They are not a good deed and they are not a bad deed. I have a house.

It's a karmic result of doing something nice for somebody. It's not a karma, okay? Got it?

It came from a good karma. So, okay, good. Wow.

So anyway, God, you could spend a few weeks on this stuff. This is really kind of amazing. Okay?

All right, let's go on to the new part. Yay! I'm satisfied with the old part.

By the way, the Golden Key author, what's he say on all this?

[Speaker 2]
He says they're opinions of the lower schools, doesn't he?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He didn't... This is why Tsongkapa's auto-commentary is longer than the Golden Key, because the Golden Key guy left all this stuff out. He said, I don't get it.

He just said, look, the two unclear ones are samsaric or enlightened and good deeds and bad deeds. And then that's all he said. He didn't say anything about the rest of this stuff.

And that's why we are...

[Speaker 2]
Torturing ourselves with another commentary?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's why we're translating Tsongkapa's auto-commentary after we already finished the Golden Key, because the author of the Golden Key, he made an executive decision not to go too deep.

[Speaker 2]
Well, he said he was writing a commentary that you could just read.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and he didn't want to... The reason he wrote his commentary was to help translators and the mixed nuts do something about mind-only for the first four years. All right, here we go.

Please read. Who's checking you? Roxanna Singh, are you there?

She's translating. Oh, she just had a baby or something like that?

[Student]
Grand, grand.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Grand baby. Oh my gosh, congratulations. They have Amelie's old best friend.

[Student]
Oh, nice.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's the other virus. There's a second virus going around. Ola, are you translating?

[Student]
Yes. She's translating.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. All right, Dibson. I know you're not translating.

Check word, okay? Try to criticize him. Dekhe du yang.

[Speaker 2]
Dekhe du yang. Tek chen du pe le. Chi dang nang tang mi sel wa.

Ni tang kun zug, ni tang ni. Tang pe tun te, te tak kun. Saba nang pa chu tu du.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, nice. Now Tsongkapa says, look, let's go back to Mahayana Sangraha. Just remember where we started from.

And here's the six from the Mahayana Sangraha. And I was giving you two commentaries to help you understand the six. You can read the verse, Wurin.

I mean, translate it.

[Speaker 2]
Inner and outer and unclear. Two and deceptiveness. And ultimately, those are all the seeds which we are professing are six.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good, yeah. Outer seeds, one. Two, inner seeds.

Three, four. Two, unclear ones. Five, fake.

Six, real. Those are the six kinds of karmic seeds in the foundation consciousness, okay? Now, Tsongkapa throws in the next verse.

Let's go look at it. And by the way, he doesn't even separate them, Wurin. Okay?

You separate them? They're all connected. I separated them.

Let's unseparate them, okay? Then he's got four more lines. He throws in four more lines.

Let's, I don't know. We're going to have to push this down. Okay.

Now, read the other four lines, please. Wait, word.

[Speaker 2]
Den lung ma den go ja wa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Go wa je tang je wa den.

[Speaker 2]
Perfect, perfect, perfect. Perfect, Alison. Den lung ma den go ja wa.

Go wa je tang je wa den. Go che the le shen du min. The ni pak chak tsen ni to.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, now he's quoting, he's quoting the Mahayana Sangraha. he's finished with the six kind of seeds. He throws in another verse, which is not even the next verse, and he doesn't separate them, okay?

He's got four lines from someplace, then he takes four lines from someplace else, and they have nothing to do with the six kind of seeds. Why is he doing that? Okay, like what's Tsongkapa doing?

You ready, word? Yeah, it's later in the book. Yeah, look at this verse carefully.

DEN LUNG MA BSTAN GO CHEN Okay, here we go. I'm going to take you to another, as word so astutely understands. Guess where we are now.

[Speaker 2]
It's the jasmine thing.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Yeah, we're in the description of the kunshi, not the seeds, okay? Got it?

We just skipped to word's first book, and we're looking at that verse. First of all, we can say that there's been some plagiarism, why, word?

[Speaker 2]
Because the lines are the same?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Most of this verse is stolen from Asanga directly.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Tsongkapa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
DEN LUNG MA BSTAN GO BYA BA Okay, it's exactly the same. GO BAR BYED DANG BRAL BA DANG Exactly the same. These first two lines were directly stolen from the Mahayana Sangraha, okay?

And what you're going to realize as we go through his auto-commentary, he confesses it. He says, look, I just chopped this out and put it in my text, okay? Got it?

Now, what's frustrating, word, is that we're supposed to be in a discussion of the four ways of...

[Speaker 2]
Seeds.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Dividing up seeds. And now he goes to kunshi.

[Speaker 2]
Well, Geshe La, did you notice the homework you gave me? Why? He doesn't say, you may ask, what are the ways to divide seeds?

He says, you may ask, what are the ways to divide the kunshi?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, now, word. I got a debate for you.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, here we go. I know the question.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Back where he had the four divisions that you were quizzing Stanley on or somebody. At that point, he said, I'm going to tell you the number of seeds. Then he finished the six.

Then he says, by the way, kunshi has three divisions. Kunshi is divided into three, okay? Okay, here's the conversation.

Hey, word, how you doing? Good. You want to know how many seeds are in the kunshi?

Kind of. Yeah, well, there's four divisions. There's six, there's three, and then there's two sets of four.

Are you good with that? Sounds good. Okay, let me give you the six.

Those are outer, inner, two unclear, one fake, one real. You comfortable? That's six.

Okay, now let's go to kunshi and divide the kunshi into three. Wait, what? No, it's that weird.

It's that weird, okay? You should be asking, what? You promised us to tell us the different kind of seeds in the world, and you said there's four different ways to split them up, and you finished the sixth, and then suddenly you say, and there's three kinds of kunshi.

What? Okay, got it? I noticed.

Yeah, and then before that, you have this part about the kunshi that comes later that has nothing to do with the seeds or the divisions of kunshi.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So just to make our audience happy, Word, and just so they feel like they understand something from today's class, let's go through the verse that Tsongkapa puts in here. We don't know why yet, okay? And it says, hey, you want to know what it is?

Explain this verse, basically, Word, okay? Explain this verse for us. Yay, I'm taking a break.

Grandpa's taking a break.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so this verse is all about the quality of the kunshi, the foundation consciousness. What does it have to be like to be a foundation of consciousness? And the word that gets used quite often to describe it or what it does is a go.

And go means, it means to smear something. So she here is just like kunshi, and we call it smearable place when we're not being technical. And that's like a canvas or something.

Like you can smear paint on a canvas, right? But you can't smear it in the wind. You wouldn't make a good painting, right?

So in that case, the smearable place, the place where you smear or put the seeds, if you will, has to be firm. And that's brtan, B-R-T-A-N, meaning if it was like the wind or sound or something, you wouldn't be able to put anything on it. It wouldn't last, it wouldn't work.

And then next you have, what does the smearing? And so we have a Gowar Jay. That's the smearer.

And how are they connected? Because it makes sense that you have to determine all those things because that's how a seed gets planted. And then we're wondering about how the foundation consciousness works.

And it's all about seeds. So how do your actions go into foundation consciousness to become your reality? And how is it a place that is good for that unlike other things like the five consciousnesses or the mental functions or the seventh consciousness?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, cool. Yeah, this verse is describing the necessary characteristics for the refrigerator [?], okay? First of all, it also has to be solid over time, right?

Like if it doesn't continue on from past to present to future, you can't plant seeds there. So it has to be solid in some way. It has to be karmically neutral.

If the foundation consciousness is already a good deed or a bad deed, it's not going to take different kinds of seeds. It's going to infect them. Thirdly, it should be something kind of like clay where you can put an imprint, okay?

It can't be unimprintable. Fourthly, it has to be connected to the good deeds and bad deeds to plant seeds. Otherwise you would just do a good deed and a bad deed and it would show up on another planet or something.

It has to be connected somehow to your actions. And then lastly, it can't be... It has to be the only place you can plant your seeds and there shouldn't be any other place you can plant your seeds, like in your toe or something like that, okay?

Now, why did Tsongkapa repeat that verse in the middle of discussing six kinds of seeds? That's our big question today. I know you're all burning to know why.

Let's go back to our real text. Here it is, okay? By the way, the Tengyur has an incredible mistake here.

You wanna tell me why, Word? It says B-R-T-E-N.

[Speaker 2]
That means something completely different and it also could be something that is relevant to us because 10 with an E means the thing which supports or supported and that is part of our kunshi too.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, it's a reasonable mistake but it's a very serious mistake. So the Tengyur is wrong, okay? Then, and then here's the other parts that Tsongkapa stole, okay?

And then it goes off on something else, okay? Word, does it make sense if I say to you, the kunshi shouldn't be different from the seeds that make imprints on it, or what puts an imprint. It shouldn't be different.

[Speaker 2]
Different in what sense? It shouldn't be...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
GZHAN DU MIN, GZHAN DU MIN here, okay? Oh, well, I say it shouldn't be unrelated from the action which puts the seed in the mind. The foundation consciousness should not be isolated from the good karma or the bad karma that plants the seed.

They have to have some kind of relationship.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, DANG BRAL, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, DANG BRAL, exactly, yeah. And that's what you call a real seed, okay? That's a real seed.

GZHAN DU MIN here doesn't mean definition. It means that's a real seed, okay? You want to know what a seed is?

That's a real seed, okay? Where something you can plant in this place is a real seed. Now, it relates to what we're talking about, which is a different kind of seeds, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's our punchline, because then it makes, then it's...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Then it's a discussion of the seeds, yeah. Then it's a discussion of the seeds, yeah. Yay.

All right, let's go to the next one. Woo-hoo, next one. Okay, now, this is the part where we divide the seeds into...

[Speaker 2]
Three.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yes. Okay. Please.

Oh, this is the one you translated, right?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we skipped one little line, Geshe La. Do you want to... It's just the intro to this part, I don't know.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, I'm going to do the division into three.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, that's all.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, and is this the line you translated? I don't remember.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, good. Now, why does this line bother you and me? It doesn't anymore.

It did. No, but why should it bother somebody?

[Speaker 2]
Well, because of our fake conversation earlier. It seems like a non sequitur. Je Tsongkapa starts talking about, okay, I'm going to tell you all about seeds.

Six, three, four, and four. And we got all excited about that. And he gives us six, and then he's like, oh, by the way, kunshi.

And you're like, what, Je Tsongkapa?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good, perfect, perfect comment. Perfect comment. He's supposed to be dividing seeds into three, and he starts his sentence by saying, hey, you guys, do you know that kunshi has three different types?

And then you're like, wait a minute, you were supposed to tell us the three seeds, okay? All right. And by the way, word, this sentence is a quotation.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, I saw it. I looked ahead for my translation.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, okay, good. And therefore, we can excuse Tsongkapa. He wanted to use a quotation, and the quotation was the different kinds of foundation consciousness.

But he's going to use that quotation to make three kinds of seeds, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Cool?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
I was struggling with how to translate a tawa jau, what's...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, it's just an artificial way of saying there's three and four, okay? You should view. Usually, they use shepard jau.

Usually, they use shepard jau, you know? You should understand there's three and there's four. But now he says, you should see that there's three and there's four.

Yeah, good, it's a good question. It's a very good question.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I started with you should, and then I went to, and then I used it more literally, but I wasn't sure.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's kind of a weak imperative, like you can view the divisions as three or four, okay? The divisions can be viewed as three or four. That's all.

[Student]
Oh, I like that, please. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good question.

[Student]
Passive language.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I like this. I like this translation exercise you guys are doing. Okay, here we go, we're on to the three.

Woo-hoo, finally. Who's checking you? I did this one.

[Speaker 2]
I did this one, Kenla. He did this one.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, you did this one too. I'm sorry. Okay, here we go.

I'm going to just say it quickly. DEL LA BAG CHEN NAMASU NGES BYAS RAGS KYI NAM PA SUM TE The kunshi can be divided into three parts because the seeds can be divided into three parts. Got it, Edward?

Okay. Because the seeds can be divided into three parts, the kunshi can be divided into three parts. And it's just an excuse to talk about the three kinds of seeds, okay?

Well, what's the first one? Well, there's seeds for expression. Do you want to describe those words?

Do you remember how we described them for beginning this time?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I remember. And that's why I use mental verbalizations because I'm trying to stay consistent with our previous translations.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and I'm going to ask you to answer a question.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I understand that according to your mind-only school, when I see a microphone in front of me right now, I understand that I'm actually looking at part of my mind. I understand that. But why do I have this strong feeling that it's one meter away?

What caused that?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, we talked about dan qi [?].

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, why does it feel like it's out there? You mind-only guys, you know, you sound sexy, I like your school, but isn't it the fact that it feels like those things are outside one meter away? Yeah.

Where does that come? Where does the one meter feeling come from?

[Speaker 2]
Well, you see Geshe Michael, it comes from infinite lifetimes of seeing things that way. So you should really, you should buy our newsletter.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and by the way, you can say infinite lifetimes of talking about it that way. Okay. And that's mun jir [?], okay?

That's the connection here. Okay, infinite lifetimes of saying it's out there, it begins to feel like it's out there. Therefore, that seed is called a saying seed, a saying seed.

Okay, got it? That's the first of the three seeds here. It's a saying seed.

Why? We've talked about it as outside for billions of lifetimes until now it feels like it's outside, okay? All right, what's the second seed here?

[Speaker 2]
You, wrong view of yourself.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Now, I want to say something about this one, okay? Does it mean self in the sense of Michael? Only, if we're talking about Word and Michael, okay?

So Michael and Word are on the call together today. They're talking to each other, people are listening. When I say, Geshe La, during this conversation you're having a trouble with doing self-existence, self-existence, then is it restricted to Michael or does it spread to Word also?

[Speaker 2]
I think in this case it's all things, wouldn't it be?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, it's all things. It's people and things, right? Those are two divisions.

So it's Word, Michael and everybody else on the call. And then it's all the things around us, okay? When you say you have a problem, what?

You're seeing things as having a self. It doesn't mean self and other, okay? Got it?

It doesn't mean Michael as opposed to Word. You see what I mean?

[Student]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The problem I'm having during this conversation spreads to Word, spreads to Michael, spreads to the computer, spreads to the tree in front of me, spreads to my house. We're not talking about myself. We're talking about the feeling that things are themself.

Got it? Okay. Just keep that in mind.

[Speaker 2]
I would say own, like exist on their own. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good, yeah. Having some self nature, yeah. And not coming from me, that's the point.

Coming from their own side, okay. Okay, it's not the self of me and you. That's not what it is, okay?

Right? Right. It's not me and you.

It's all the me's in the world, okay? All right. And what's the third kind of seed?

[Speaker 2]
There's a couple of ways we translated this. Links of suffering life.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good. Generally speaking, when we say Sipa Yenlak, we're going to think Sugeng's first book. We're not going to say he has a second book yet because he doesn't have a second book yet.

He has to prove himself. Yes, he has to get to Vasubandhu's... I think we're doing Vasubandhu's biography.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, so those are the three.

And it's a quotation. And here's where it comes from. It's directly from Mahayana Sangraha.

Okay. Let's keep going. Okay.

Nick, can you... Nick, can you check him? He's going to read quickly.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, what's the first kind of seed in the division of three? It's called seed for calling things, things, okay? The seed for calling things, things, okay?

And that's going to be the first kind of seed. That's the first of our three seeds. And here it is, name.

It gives names to everything in the universe. It thinks about things as having qualities. To put it briefly, we can say it is the cause which triggers your mind to give names to everything in your world, okay?

And we're not going to... We're going to say we stop before that. You're going to do it more...

You want to try to translate this sentence?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I mean, I'll do this one in the next one because that one we just did.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, we kind of did this one. Let me see what the next one feels like. I want you to do the next two, okay?

DILA TRIPA, NGON CIG GI BAG CHA, okay? Those three sentences, okay? You got it?

DILA BAG CHA, NGON CIG, and DILA TRIPA, okay? Got it?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. What's MI'K MI'K?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So this... Which one? MI'K MI'K.

[Speaker 2]
Which one? MI'K MI'K. MI'K MI'K.

We had that before. MI'K MI'K, SUG SUG.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
By the way, today we had two famous... We had two of them today. We had...

We had... Dang, what was that? MI'K MI'K.

[Student]
Oh, yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
What was that? MI'K MI'K.

[Student]
MI'K MI'K.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Poo. MI'K MI'K. Don't do that.

[Student]
Oh, right, right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, don't do that. Don't throw that in the jar. Don't do that.

Don't do that. Don't give up your voice, okay? Yeah, now I know that MI'K never has to repeat a don't do that with Amelie, but I'm just, you know.

All day long. Okay. I'll see you guys tomorrow morning.

I gotta go work in the garden or my wife's gonna kill me. Thank you, Geshe Michael. I love you.

I'll see you guys.

[Student]
Thank you, Geshe Michael.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Thank you, everybody. Thank you, translators. This is so much fun.

[Student]
Let's do it forever.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Deep in the confusion. By the way, what does Geshe Michael always say?

If you understand it... You don't come back. Don't come.

Don't come back. You're not learning anything. If you already understand it, don't come here, okay?

If you don't understand what we talked about, especially in words, text, then you're learning something. And that's the whole idea. All right.

I'll see you guys later. Wan'an.

[Student]
Xie xie.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Wan'an.

[Student]
Wan'an.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Wan'an. Stick around for Q&A.