Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 4

[Speaker 3]
And people who are more like feelings-oriented will say, I feel you. Yeah. They'll be more likely to say that.

Yeah. But now that I'm aware of that fact, I say all three.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, yeah. Could be balanced, huh? Hey, Nicholas, Grandpa's here.

[Speaker 3]
Grandpa.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Agong.

[Speaker 3]
Yes, there you are. Yeah, yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Agong, yeah, yeah, Geshe Michael.

[Speaker 3]
Agong, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Hey, does the scriptorium feel lonely without us? To be very honest, I think I'm going to come and do some classes here. Cool.

I was thinking I'd come here two or three days a week and do business. You know, like today we worked on the Sanskrit for Utpala's text. Oh, cool.

I'm thinking to do some afternoons here, like three days a week or something like that.

[Speaker 3]
Awesome.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. So anyway, I'll do some classes from here, maybe in the afternoon. Okay.

You go ahead and do your homework while I eat the popcorn.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, is it me or is it Ben? It's me.

[Speaker 3]
It's Ben.

[Speaker 2]
It's me. Whoever's got the screen has to cough it up for me.

[Speaker 3]
Yeah, that would be me.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool.

[Speaker 3]
I just got a little nervous for a second.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Speaker 3]
No Ezra video?

[Speaker 2]
Well, I was leaving the screen for other things. We're going to be here very quick. This is from today.

[Speaker 3]
Don't get it, Ezra. We don't see it. Oh, there he is.

Get the ball, Ezra. There we go.

[Speaker 2]
This little creature back here who is not very close to the ball.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I have to play soccer with a mask on?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, you have to wear masks.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's hard.

[Speaker 2]
You know, not for them. They don't care. They don't have all our BS to worry about.

They just accept what we tell them to do.

[Speaker 3]
For now, Kramer. Yeah, for another couple years.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, sure. Well, bless him. He's still in that space.

Okay, everybody.

[Speaker 3]
Thanks, Ben.

[Speaker 2]
Sashi, et cetera. What is the land of realized beings, everybody? We had a bunch of poetry, so some of these are going to be pretty easy.

I've got two overly easy questions and then an overly hard question, but that's okay. Yeah, cool. Right.

If you were the sort of, from the sort of culture that liked to shorten things into two-syllable words whenever possible, you would just say. Totally. Right.

Cool. In English? Yeah, right.

[Speaker 3]
India, I guess, if it's English.

[Speaker 2]
Cool. Sounds good. Right.

Yeah, that's probably. Ben. Yes?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I think it's Aryavarta in Sanskrit.

[Speaker 2]
Aryavarta. That's nice. Yeah.

Varta. Varta. Where else do we have varta?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You eat a lot of beans, I think.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah. Varta. Varta.

Varta.

[Speaker 3]
Aryasthan.

[Speaker 2]
Aryasthan, that's nice. What's a master of dual speech, and what's the Tibetan term? Translator.

[Speaker 3]
Translator. Mixed. Cool.

No, it's the ones who translate the mixes, probably. I'm not a master of two speeches.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, good word in particular, you got the mawa. Yeah, that's nice. Okay.

Here we go. Now this is, we went from too easy to too hard, especially for the Tibetan, which I already don't remember, and I wrote the homework, but. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Hey, Ben, Ben, this is a new way to tell us someone has laziness.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Well, I went through the trouble, at least. Let's see.

Which one of these lazinesses includes not remembering what the answers are to my own question.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The second one, not. Well, what's the first one? The first one is laying around lazy.

[Speaker 3]
Oh, yeah. Procrastination. Procrastination.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Right. I want to list the three of you, but I'll tell you later.

[Speaker 2]
Please, at your leisure. It's fine. I'm sure you'll get around to it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Chisel.

[Speaker 2]
Chisel. Chisel. Yeah, right.

I wasn't sure, because your shot sounded like a saw for some reason.

[Speaker 3]
You got to cut your English there, Ben.

[Speaker 2]
Putting things off.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The second one is focusing on the lesser deeds, less important.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, cool. Yeah. It almost sounds like evil deeds, right?

But it's not. It's just lesser. Chokpa being attracted to those things in particular.

I'm really good at this one.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I think it was spelled N-E-T-F-L-I something. X. X.

Yes. And then that's next. What's next?

Which is the laziness of thinking that you have low self-esteem. You can't do it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, right. You're not wrong for thinking you have low self-esteem, but then you've got to pick this one now.

Yeah. Feeling discouraged or low self-esteem, right? These two seem to be related.

I mean, he said, or, you know, one or the other. So I don't know if we could say in the sense of, in this case, being discouraged in the sense of having low self-esteem. Yeah.

The boss likes it. I've got a thumbs up. Maybe I'll even put a, in the sense.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Why am I? I got, I got my grandson in the room.

No, you said that. Great dictionaries. Three were wrong, but.

They've just put, they put wrong NEPA for this one. And then they. And then they put the first two, I believe.

Oh, well, I'm sorry. If I picked on the great dictionary, generally the great dictionary is an incredible piece of work, by the way. But if I have the choice between scripture and the great dictionary, I'll always take scripture.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Cool. Yeah.

And boss, we attributed this to. But it, it was not, it was gun tongues [?]. Praise of Je Tsongkapa in the.

Really? I'm sorry. No sweat.

No sweat.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Actually, it's an outline. So he used the same vocabulary words, I think.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool. All right. Whoops.

This is not the right thing to do. This is the right thing to do. Okay.

Let's talk about what I've tried to do here, boss.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Now I can't eat popcorn, right?

[Speaker 2]
I'm not going to tell you. How to make those decisions.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
All right, let me buckle down here. Okay. The first one is perfect.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that's nice. That'll have to do.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The second is perfect.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Nowhere to go.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Something wrong with you. The third one is perfect. This is good.

Now, I don't know. You're going to.

[Speaker 2]
That's okay. I can do three quarters. Very happy.

That's still pretty happy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, hang on. Yeah, I just took two suggestions about number four. The first suggestion is, sometimes Tsema Nambrel is called gepe tenju.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, I was afraid of that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, okay. So it's not him in detail. It's the work is a detail.

Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Yes. All right. And earlier iteration of my translation, I should have stuck to it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And he's not being modest about his understanding. He's being modest about the number of words he's going to write.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I'll give you just a brief presentation. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
So the tenla bet is not his understanding.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, no. This tenla bet means I'll give you a short presentation.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I'll give you a short presentation of the meaning of Tsema Nambrel. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And it's not. It's a huge presentation. And as we're going to, but he's being modest.

Yeah. And as we're going to learn. And I don't know what it is, but this subject seems to bring out the nerd in people.

And it's not unusual for someone to write a thousand pages on it, which translates to 8,000 pages of English. So it's a, it's a popular book to overwrite on. Or to spend 50 years translating.

[Speaker 2]
No, it's great. I mean, you know, despite my, my moment of panic, which I come through, I'm just so. Yeah.

What could I, what could be better than to get you to be stuck in such a commitment with me?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, we'll pick it up. Okay. Good.

Good job. You did a really good job. The homework was good.

And the. And the translation was excellent.

[Speaker 2]
Doing this. It'll help me get better.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. I'm glad we're doing this. I think it's time to do it.

Right.

[Speaker 2]
Wonderful. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Dr. And I found that.

[Speaker 2]
The exercise this morning was really cool and very hard for me. And I think it's great. But also like I can see the words.

It's very hard for me to. To process what I'm reading into a coherent sentence. I'm trying to understand what it means, even when I see the words to do that very quickly and playing with, trying to help each other through it is incredibly hard.

But it's really cool to see you pushing us a little bit more. I really do appreciate it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. And I, I think it was. It was.

I think it's going to help you guys a lot. And it takes, I can eat more popcorn while you're doing it. which is the main benefit.

Okay, we finished this first paragraph, right? By the way, where we're going now is a review of the Indian literature on Pramana, not necessarily Pramanavarttika, but all Pramana texts, so it's a review of all Pramana texts in Sanskrit.

[Speaker 2]
Which we happen to kind of be doing in Adam's book right now also.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yours is more detailed actually. But I have to say something here. When Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk, at some point when he was released from confinement, he became the head of all, he became the Communist Party head of Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet, and then they made a good choice.

And then he said, let's do a project and compare all the Tengyurs and Kangyurs. And they gave him a warehouse, and he got all the Kangyurs and Tengyurs, and he laid the pages out in the warehouse on the floor, and he compared all the Kangyurs and Tengyurs, and they made a combined edition. And it was a massive work.

So he had a personal interest in what's in the Tengyur on Pramana. So you're gonna hear a real master's analysis of what the Indians wrote about this topic. Because he spent many years, he was like Butön Rinpoche.

He was very similar to Butön Rinpoche. He put together the first comparative edition of all the Kangyurs and Tengyurs. And then he died, and then he was involved in a car accident and died suddenly.

And he didn't finish the work. So anyway, here we go. Which is a problem.

Stanley just looks like he's dying to correct you.

[Speaker 2]
Could even be, I know we're still struggling to find the biographical materials that you had recalled on this Lama, but it could even be worthy of a footnote if we don't have a more extensive biography to tell people about this.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Or somebody should get somebody to go to Geshe Tutor Rinchen who knew his life well.

[Speaker 3]
And interview him.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And ask for a recording, just to make a half hour recording. And he would know a lot of the details.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, that's a very cool idea.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And he's getting older, so it'd be useful to do it pretty fast. There was nobody else in the monastery closer to Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk than Geshe Tutor Rinchen. He was his direct disciple.

[Speaker 3]
Wow. I mean, we could talk to Sena about trying to make that happen really soon, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. By the way, it always works better to send one of our input ladies than to send a monk. They like to talk to them because they go, ooh, and wow, and ooh.

It's like guys showing off their translation to their wives. All right.

[Speaker 2]
I said maybe Sena Maiden can help with that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
But do it fast because everyone's getting older.

[Speaker 2]
That's exciting.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That would be really valuable in your introduction. It would make your introduction very valuable. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Amazing.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Let me get my big cursor here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. I'm a pretty big cursor.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I also do big cursing at other cars on the road.

[Speaker 2]
That's my poor son. He's really just got to learn when it's okay to say those words and when it's not because I can't hide them from him.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, that's something my parents are going to have to deal with. Okay, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Todd drill. Okay, cool. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
All right.

[Speaker 2]
Well, yeah, he's doing this thing that no one ever does in actually telling us what the first section is, even though he mentioned the four sections.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's how he keeps it up.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, right. This is the first time when we needed the least, at least he's doing it. So first will be a presentation of the works or an enumeration of the works of the Indian masters on the topic of accurate perception.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, cool. Park, you'll do.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. From India, the land of the areas. Same issue.

The works on accurate perception.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I would almost say classics. Okay, for sure. Can not be which means presents or sets forth.

[Speaker 2]
And talk by talk more, I mean, finally, but in context, I want to say first, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, say talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, deeds be good on the first day, may they be good on the last day, and may they be good on all the days between. Toktapar Singh. Like when you undertake a project like a big translation, may the beginning be virtuous, may the end be virtuous, may the middle be virtuous.

So that's tok, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, so the first thing we have here is the compendium on accurate perception by the master Dignaga.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good, the person who was writing on the wall of the cave, right? He also wrote Rig-go, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Rig-go, through the door of reason?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's the door of reasoning, yeah. He wrote a book called the Door of Reasoning, and that was only located in the Chinese. The Sanskrit was missing, so the Tibetans translated it from the Chinese.

And it's called, the Chinese translated it as Rig-pa-la-ju-pa, entering the science of logic, okay, reasoning. And the Tibetans later renamed it somehow into Rig-pa-la-ju-pe-go.

[Speaker 2]
All right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The doorway or the gateway to enter, so they just added gateway, right? And then for some reason, the Tibetans added an R to go, okay? And I can't see any good reason, but it's endemic, everybody does it.

They call it Rig-go. Maybe the Tibetans took it as Rig-pa-go-la-ju-pa, entering the door, instead of the door for entering, you see what I mean?

[Speaker 2]
Okay, yeah, into the door.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Don't get confused by the R, okay? It's a common Tibetan spelling for the name of that book. Okay, then the Tse-ma-do has Tse-rang-do.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, so there's an auto-commentary, huh?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and it's separate from the Rig-go, okay? It's not the same as the Rig-go. And he also wrote Ju-sin-tak-pa.

[Speaker 2]
Um, yeah, I mean, it's like naming the three times?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This Tak-pa means an examination of, okay? What's the most famous chapters called Tak-pa? Yeah, Nagarjuna's wisdom.

Each chapter is called an investigation into blah, blah, blah. So here, you could say investigation or analysis, okay? Then he's got Mikpa Tak-pa, which he abbreviated here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, I mean, an examination of things we see or observe.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, exactly, objects, yeah. And you know, I used to wonder if it was really an examination of objects, and I read it, and it is. So, and then...

[Speaker 2]
Is that an auto-commentary?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Tsa-and-a-rang-do, yeah. Tsa-and-a-rang-do.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Then he wrote a very interesting work called Chok-chu-kor-lo, which is the Wheel of the First Relationship, right?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, what?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The First of the Three Relationships.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, wow, Chok-chu, gee, it's cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and it's kind of an interesting chart of the different relationships, okay?

[Speaker 2]
That's pretty dreamy, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And Rinpoche wrote a small text based on that. I don't know where it is. I've read it, but I don't know where it is.

Probably it went in his bookshelf somewhere. Then the Master Wangchuk De...

[Speaker 2]
The Master Wangchuk De...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which is... Say again? Ishvara Pitaka?

It's down here. I got it for you.

[Speaker 3]
Good. I was going to say that two-word, but... Yeah, that sounds right.

I was like, could that be a name, though?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, De is something else.

[Speaker 2]
Some of these are hidden, but some of these are deeply hidden, so we may not be able to logic it out.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
By the way, I have a lot of notes here for you, as you have noticed. Here it is, Ishvara Sena. Ishvara Sena.

And he has some question marks, but I think it's correct. And by the way, as I've mentioned before, Lokesh Chandra is 99% of the time he's correct, which is so... It's so nice to meet a scholar like that.

Why do we have all this? Okay, here. All right, so Ishvara Sena, he wrote a commentary to Kundu.

Yubida!

[Speaker 2]
Oh, it's like the auto-commentary? What is it?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yubida means, looks like he did.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, oh, it's like it exists?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and Pudumagyur.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, but it wasn't translated into Tibetan?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, it never got translated into Tibetan.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, sorry, bud.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Yubida! It never made it to the floor of the warehouse.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You know, do you think the abbot has arrived yet? He's saying, Yubida, I think he probably has, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Yubida.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, and here's my study of the question of the go. By the way, this is the catalog, the native catalog to the Tengyur. It lists the Rigpa-la-jukpe go, and then it lists the Tengyur Rigpa-la-jukpe, and it doesn't tell you that they're talking about the same book, but they are.

So that's the catalog. I saw the jukpe go, and then I saw jukpe. They're listed separately in the catalog.

They have separate translators. Translators. And then I dug and dug and dug, and then I realized it's the same book, and they don't tell you that.

[Speaker 2]
They have separate translators, meaning there were two translators of the same book. What do you, how do you process that?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Here's the punchline, okay? In the Sakya Tsugla Khang, what's that mean?

[Speaker 2]
In the temple of the Sakya Monastery, okay?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
They took the RGYA'I PAS and the PHOS KYIS PAS.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, the Sanskrit version of the text and the Tibetan version of the text.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
When they mean Sanskrit, they will say RGYA'I RGYA'I PAS. I mean, Chinese. Yeah, Chinese.

They took the Chinese translation, the Tibetan translation, and they Lekpa Tok. They combined them. They created a combined translation.

And then they edited it carefully, and it became DAPA. Yeah, okay. And not putting the word go on the title of this book came from the Chinese tradition, RGYA'I PAS.

They call it RGYA'I PAS, and not RGYA'I PAS. TENGSANG PHOS RNAMS, but nowadays the Tibetans call it the doorway. Okay, so the doorway word was added by the Tibetans somehow.

[Speaker 2]
Who wrote this? This is helpful as heck.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This is the native comment catalogue. This is the catalogue to the Derge Tengyur, which the guy was brilliant.

[Speaker 2]
Apparently.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He's totally brilliant, and I often will use him. And it's so great that we input it. We got a rare edition from Derge shipped out, and it took like five years or something.

And we got it out, and we input it. And it's a brilliant piece of work.

[Speaker 2]
Do we know the monk's name?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I'll show it to you if you're really curious.

[Speaker 2]
I mean, he's like our kind of fellow.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He's totally a mixed nut. I think we should declare him an honorary mixed nut.

[Speaker 2]
We can't see this, but...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I know, I'm going to show you in a minute.

[Speaker 2]
I'm sorry, I don't mean to derail us.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I love getting derailed. I just love this bibliography entry. I'm quite proud of it.

Okay, here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, well, great. That's a nice excuse, because I'll need that to make a bibliography entry.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, you are going to need it. Okay, here we go. His name is Zhuchen Tsultrim Rinchen.

The name of the catalog is... You can read it, Ben.

[Speaker 2]
A new moon which raises the treasure of the waters of wondrous discussion through the gathering of vast mountains of clouds and the goodness of those of the eon in which virtues are completed. The mother of all incredible machines, the never-ending shower of the gifts of the teaching, all you could wish for, of the entire body of the classical commentaries which illuminate each and every thought within the holy word, both general and more specific, of the mighty and all-knowing one, the friend of the sun, Lord Buddha, and which have been translated into the language of the people of the land of snows. Holy moly.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yay! That's the name of the catalog. God, this bibliography entry cost me like an hour.

[Speaker 3]
What text used this? I remember we did this a couple of terms ago. One or two terms ago.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I have used it in many of your texts. It's in your biographies. Okay, I'm going to stop showing off my longest title that I ever translated.

I think it really is. Okay, let's go back to Yeshe Wangchuk. Okay.

This is some other notes I took. Here's all the relevant Tohoku catalog, and you could create entries. I really encourage you to add entries to your bibliographies from the combined bibliography that we've done, which saves you many, many hours of work.

And as we do more books, we'll be able to produce books faster. Like nowadays for Venerable Utpala's book, I didn't have to do over half the bibliography entries. I didn't have to do.

I just took them out of that. Okay, so there's some... I thought you might be interested to see this author that he refers to that we didn't get translated.

Ishvara Sena. I'd like you to see where he stands in the transmission, the lineage.

[Speaker 2]
Check it out. Right between. So do you think that this is a...

Well, the timing isn't good, I don't know, for it to be a direct lineage. Are we saying that these guys touched each other?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, they claimed that. They claimed that he was a direct student of Dignaga and that Dharmakirti was his direct student.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, beautiful.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's kind of exciting, right? And then most of these guys later on are passing down the lineage, okay?

[Speaker 2]
And where is this from?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This is from the Blue Annals, which is a very, very famous history book.

[Speaker 2]
Wonderful.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And it was translated by Nikolai Roerich from Moscow. It took him 20 years or something. I think we have a copy here.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, we do.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's this one. And he did a pretty good job for, you know, 50 years ago or something.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He did a pretty good job.

[Speaker 2]
Longer than that now, right? Yeah, maybe.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah. Okay. And his son, of course, was one of the most famous painters of Russia and a famous explorer of Tibet.

I'm sorry, Yuri is the son and Nikolai is the father. Okay, George is the son. Yeah, here, Ben, I thought you'd like to see this.

Okay, so this is, they're talking about, this is inside the history of Dignaga. Read the big letters.

[Speaker 2]
DE LOG MA LOG PO'I DBANG BCUG DE RIGS PA'I NAS LAS LA SKAD PA ZHIG SBYONG DE KUN LAS LTOS KYIS DREL ZHES KYANG BRTZE DO So we are in the middle of the history of Dignaga.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I'm sorry, this sentence, you don't need me.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, he...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He had a LOG MA.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, well, he had a, oh, he had a teacher, his...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, LOG MA is a student.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, Dignaga had a teacher named...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, a student. Dignaga had a student named...

[Speaker 2]
Oh, right, Dignaga had a student named LOG PO'I DBANG BCUG DE, right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Master Ishvara Sena.

[Speaker 2]
Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He was RIGS PA'I NAS LA SKAD PA.

[Speaker 2]
He was a big master of logic.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, now, that's a long story, but with this spelling it means RIGS NAS NA, the five books of knowledge. If it's not RIGS, it doesn't mean logic. Okay, got it?

It could be just a misspelling, I don't know. Anyway, he was a master. CHUNG STE, he came along.

Okay, and ZAD PA.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, and he composed a commentary on the compendium.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so this book, which is Butön's History of Indian Buddhism, claims that this Ishvara Sena was a direct student of Dignaga. And read this part, DE LOG MA.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah, and he had a student. Who was Dharmakirti.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, that's all. So you actually, that's the most authoritative.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
You know, you can say, based on that, that they were probably direct lineage, the three of them. And unfortunately, the middle guy's book didn't get translated into Tibetan. Yeah.

All right, keep going. Nick wants to check you. He told me himself.

[Speaker 2]
If you would, Nick.

[Speaker 3]
Yes, I couldn't wait. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so after the missing books by Ishvara Sena, and we have his student.

[Speaker 3]
Someone's watching TV.

[Speaker 2]
Hopefully we can hear your TV, bud.

[Speaker 3]
I'm not watching TV, that's Amalich.

[Speaker 2]
That's it, yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
My tree woke up, no. Okay, Dharmakirti wrote a DELPA.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, a commentary on the Kuntu. I mean, that should be our book.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good. And by the way, Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk doesn't call it SEMS NAM BRAL. He says NAM BRAL.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, he just calls it the commentary.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, in the monastery, NAM BRAL, everyone knows you're talking about Pramanavartika.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
When you say the commentary, it's like the city is New York, and Mexico means Mexico City, and stuff like that.

[Speaker 2]
It's like dzun means kosha.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Okay, and then Dharmakirti also wrote these texts.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, what is it? Getting Certain About Accurate Perception?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, you can say ascertainment or discernment. I don't know. Anyway, okay.

And he wrote SEMS NAM BRAL.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, what was this? This is a lecture?

[Speaker 3]
A Drop of Reasoning.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
A Drop of Reasoning. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
Geshe La, didn't you used to call it a Dose of Reasoning or something?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's the other guy's translation of Utpala's book's title. And by the way, it's not a bad... I like the chutzpah that he showed.

I would do different chutzpah, but I was very... I know the person, José Cabezón. He's a good man.

And he's a pretty good translator. Okay, so these books, these three are LU.

[Speaker 2]
These are the body of the works on Accurate Perception by Master Dharmakirti.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good, and what do we expect up next, anticipatory translator?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, it should be the yin ten, the ancillary books, the yinlak, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, the yinlak. Okay, words, since you wanted to check him on this next paragraph, let's go. Okay, good.

These are the yinlak, okay? These are like the limbs of the body. And each of them took us from a different chapter.

[Speaker 2]
They each expand on a different chapter from the nanga.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So, the chapter on RANG BDUN BYED PAR.

[Speaker 2]
A deduction for your own benefit.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so you can figure out whether the Buddha exists and whether Buddhism is relevant, okay? It's called DENG ZIG THIG PA.

[Speaker 2]
Uh-huh, the drops of reasons or drops of reason.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, reasons is good. So DENG ZIG, you'll get used to it, but it could be the reason, it could be element number three in a syllogism, or it often refers to the whole syllogism, okay? And it's, unfortunately, it's a confusion.

Sometimes you don't know which one they mean, okay? To translate these titles, it'd probably be useful to go look at the books. I found, by the way, I strongly, strongly, strongly, and strongly recommend, do not accept a translation of a title by any other person unless you go and look at the book and read it, okay?

Because there are some really ridiculous titles that are used by scholars all over the world. And go, just take the time, open up the book, read a few pages, and make sure what it's about, okay? And you'll find out that about half the common titles used by people are wrong, okay?

Some of them are ridiculously wrong. Okay, DRAL PA THAG PA.

[Speaker 2]
DRAL PA THAG PA, The Examination of Relationships.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good, and that becomes a whole section in the DURA, right? Now, those are both two subjects taken from the chapter of using logic for your own edification. Now, how about the direct, the direct exception chapter?

That, you get GYUSHEN DURPA.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, the proof of other mindstreams.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Speaker 2]
Santana.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good, you got it. I should have paid you.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, sorry.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Santana, Santana, Sidney. Yeah, proving other mindstreams.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, instead I got to be serenaded by your lovely rendition.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and by the way, this is the famous answer to the DCI [?] question, Nick.

[Speaker 3]
Am I kissing myself?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, when I kiss my boyfriend, am I kissing myself? Do other people even exist? And by the way, every single idea in Ben's 50-year book has applications to your real life.

You just have to find them. Okay, in this case, how to kiss your girlfriend or boyfriend. Okay, and then there's the Shenden Liu.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, expansions of extending from the chapter, which is for your benefit.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Shenden.

[Speaker 2]
I'm sorry, for others' benefit.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then actually, it's Shenden Jipa.

[Speaker 2]
Right, deduction for the benefit of others.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, good. Yeah, what we get from that is TSUPE RIGPA.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, the logic of debate?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, it's like the science of disputation or something like that, okay? These are like yenlaks.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, these are like the limbs.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which makes for four limb books, making a total of...

[Speaker 2]
Deyden, seven books on accurate perception by the master of accuracy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Nice, okay. Let's get some other victims involved here. Tim is with me today.

Hi, Tim. You're gonna check Ben's pronunciation. Here we go.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
TSE MA NAM BRAL GYI LIU DANG PO has a RANG BRAL.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, the first chapter has an auto-commentary.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And that's a MA YIN GAR.

[Speaker 2]
Um, meaning he did not write an auto-commentary on the other chapters, or at least, you know, not all of them.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so the last three chapters, it may be that he passed away before he had time. You see what I mean? Then FA WANG LO, which you can say DE VEN DRA BUDI.

It's also seen as DE VEN DRA MA TI. And when I have the choice, and there's a Sanskrit from the Mahavyutpatti, which was an early dictionary used for translating Sanskrit to Tibetan, I will probably use that one. And it says DE VEN DRA BUDI, okay?

So that's kind of a confirmation, okay?

[Speaker 2]
And just a commentary on the last three.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, the latter three chapters, good. Uh, when you add up that book on the last three chapters, and the auto-commentary on the first chapter, it means if you add DE VEN DRA BUDI's commentary quantity to the first chapter auto-commentary, you end up with 12,000 shlokas.

[Speaker 2]
Cool, all right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And, by the way, when he says shlokas, they're not in verse. They're not written in verse. I mean, the commentaries are not written in verse.

So it's just an estimate of page numbers, really, okay? So here's actually the first chapter is 100 pages. The commentary, the auto-commentary is 100 pages.

[Speaker 2]
What's the yang shu, boss? Oh, I'm getting there.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I wanted to tell you how much is 12,000 shlokas about. So add 100 pages of Tengyur, which is 200 pages western way, front and back. And then here's the commentary by DE VEN DRA BUDI, and it is 326 pages.

So you've got 425 pages, which in English would be 3,000 pages, okay? Okay, so when he says 12,000 shlokas, you can think of it as 3,000 English pages, okay? Okay.

Because it has 12,000, because it has 12,000, the equivalent to 12,000 verses, the two together are sometimes called the book on logic in 12,000.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, wow.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, that's why he was giving you the shloka number, but it's not written in shloka. So it's just the equivalent, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, all right, cool.

[Speaker 2]
Paangshu, you're still getting there? No.

[Speaker 3]
Excuse me? Paangshu?

[Speaker 2]
Paangshu, Paangshu or?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Paangshu, yeah, it's also called. And the shu means people call it. Yeah, okay.

It's also known as, it's also known as the, it's also known as the accurate perception in 12,000.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, cool. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Even though it's not in shlokas. Yeah, by the way, here's where he got the 12,000. Okay?

He didn't count it. He's quoting that author of the catalog. Okay?

[Speaker 3]
Cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He's quoting the Derge Tengyur Catalog. Zhuchen, what was his name? I don't remember.

But, you know, it's not that Geshe Wangchuk went and counted the shlokas. He got that number from the Native Catalog. Okay.

I just thought you might be interested. By the way, here it says Drapachembo, which means the great Sanskritist. Okay, the great master.

So, apparently, Devendra Buddhi was also a great scholar of Sanskrit language. He wrote in Sanskrit, but he was a great Sanskritist.

[Speaker 3]
Zhuchen Tsultrim Rinchen.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Zhuchen Tsultrim Rinchen, yeah. I mean, you should remember that name. It's amazing.

Talk about big projects. You know, he pulled it off. He must have spent 20, 25 years on that catalog.

It's good. It's really good. Okay, I'm looking at Ava wants to correct you.

Okay, Ava, are you there? Andrade? I'm not sure.

Yeah, I'm here. Oh, God, you sound too sick. Cancel that.

Allison, I promised you this morning something, and I didn't give it to you. Let's go.

[Speaker 2]
Thank you.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Cool. All right. And by the way, this is the dry part of his book.

I'm sorry about it. But if you had spent 20 years laying out Tengyurs on the floor of a warehouse, you'd probably want to talk about it too. Uh, okay.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
Right. Those are all the commentaries.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
By the way, I gave you the answer here.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Oh, what? Those are all the commentaries.

I don't understand.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Somebody wrote a single commentary on all the lieu.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, on all the chapters.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so that's what he's saying. He's distinguishing now other commentaries from the first two, because the first two were both incomplete, right? Okay, okay.

[Speaker 2]
So these are commentaries written on the whole book.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Exactly. So to all the chapters, there's the commentary by Master...

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And that has 63 bumbles. And, you know, bumble is another artificial number of words. It's a byte count.

Okay. I went and gave you the number of folios. So, you know.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, are we calling that? I mean, for the sake of putting it in English, are you calling that a chapter? Are you calling that a section?

Are you calling that a...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, I just call it... I forget what I call it. Fascicle in my book.

Fascicle's good. Fascicle's good, yeah. There's a big debate, for example, when Xuanzang came back from India.

How many books did he have? And some people say a thousand. I could only have found 63 or something like that.

And then they say, oh no, it's fascicles, you know? So, you know, anyway. How many can you carry on a couple of horses?

I don't know.

[Speaker 2]
Can we say volumes or something?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I would say fascicles. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
It's not very rigor testy.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Then there's the master, Yeshe Sambo. And you'll have trouble finding him if you don't put Yeshe Pel Sambo, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Oh, okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, so, you know, he should have put a Pel in there. And his name is Jnanashribhadra, okay? And by the way, these books don't have their own sexy names.

Huh. In many cases, they're just called a commentary on, you know.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This is, by the way, a commentary to the Vinishchaya. This is a commentary to that other book, The Discernment of Semu, okay?

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Okay, so does that...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, he's switching out of... I guess we should cut it here, right?

[Speaker 2]
Seems like it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Because now we're talking about commentaries to a different book. Namdeo say. Then Lopan Sherab Jungne Beba.

I don't know why I'm very attracted to his name. Sherab means prajna, wisdom. Akara means a source, like a spring, like Ratnakara.

And Beba means, Gupta means hidden, right? So, like Guhya and Gupta are related. Okay.

So, his name is... He's famous, Prajnakaragupta. He wrote The Sem again.

[Speaker 2]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which is The Jewel of Accurate Perception. It's 600... It's about 600 pages.

600 folios. Call it 5,000 English pages. Okay.

And by the way, this is Yichung in the parentheses. What's that mean?

[Speaker 3]
That's the short name?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yichung means it's carved half-size. In our input system, parentheses means carved half-size. And this means a real footnote.

Okay, that's how they put a footnote. What's it mean, Gen Khenpo Aung Hsueh [?]?

[Speaker 2]
Sometimes it's called The Ornament of the Master?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, The Ornament Master, okay? So, good old Prajnakaragupta is sometimes just called The Ornament Master. Okay.

[Speaker 2]
The teacher is sometimes named that, you're saying?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah, it's the teacher. And I'm afraid that oftentimes the footnotes, they're actually annotations. They don't get put in the right place in our input system because there are tiny dots carved in the block, and sometimes they wear off.

So, annotated carvings are really frustrating. The most famous one is the Commentary on Vinaya by Tsonawa, which is heavily annotated. And sometimes the annotation to the first line is on the last line.

And the dots have worn off the block. So, you just see this annotation and you don't know where it goes through.

[Speaker 3]
Yes, we're past time. I know.

[Speaker 2]
Okay, let's split it here.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I was really bored the first time I read through this. And then I kind of, you know, when you get bored, you gotta slow down and try to enjoy yourself. Totally.

[Speaker 2]
No, I'm good. It's great. Can I trouble you for an assignment?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, let's pick a good one. Today's the 14th?

[Speaker 3]
It is.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Let's pick a good one. By the way, we're gonna get, there's one more paragraph of books. There's another paragraph of books.

Kamalashila wrote some books. Yeah, we just worked on him today. Christina and me worked on the Sanskrit of his books.

Ravigupta wrote some books. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, I think next class you're gonna get out of the, yeah, you're gonna get out of the books. All right.

Now, let me find a good one for you. Okay.

[Speaker 3]
Special thanks to Utpala for not secretly writing me, but I should tell Geshe Michael the time's up. Do I do that?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, that's why. I'm gonna give you just a name for books then. Up to you.

I want you to do these three, okay? So, where it says page five?

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Do this paragraph.

[Speaker 2]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then do the next two little sentences here. Chögyal and Lhakpar.

[Speaker 3]
Uh-oh, they're getting longer as the days go on.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and I warn you, there are some personal names in here of ancient translators. He's very, very unusual in, as we have already seen, he wants to honor the translators.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So, he actually talks about the translation process a little bit.

[Speaker 2]
Okay. Do we think of the translators as having Tibetan names or Sanskrit names or both?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
They have both. I mean, it depends. Sometimes the Indians have Tibetan names and we never get to find out their Indian names.

Sometimes the Tibetans took Indian names. Sometimes the Tibetans have Tibetan names. Oftentimes the Tibetans have place names, like Mr. Pennsylvania. And then you have to figure out it was Tim.

[Speaker 2]
Do you have any hints or suggestions for me in this section when I'm dealing with personal names? Should I try to look for Sanskrit equivalents?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I doubt that you'll find them. I think he gives Sanskrit where Sanskrit is Sanskrit.

[Speaker 3]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. In fact, I'm not even sure there's any Sanskrit names in this. Oh, there's one.

But he gave it.

[Speaker 2]
Right. And we've heard of this one.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Good luck. By the way, it's a difficult section. It's going to be easier when we get to epistemology than it is to talk about the history.

[Speaker 2]
Thanks, boss. I offer you a whole world and hope this gets everyone enlightened.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. And I hope everyone enjoys Japanese sushi.

[Speaker 3]
Thank you, Geshe La.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
At what time, Nicholas? In five minutes. 5.05 Arizona time. Is that doable for you again? Yeah. Who's next, by the way?