Бен Крамер — Книга 2: Драгоценность истинной мысли (Геше Йеше Вангчук о Дхармакирти), занятие 5

[Student]
Oh, how risky. Oh, I hear some lightning and thunder. I hear some lightning and thunder.

Oh no! Did it get Paul too?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Where is that kid?

[Student]
Oh!

[Translator]
All right, that's what you get. All right, now it's up to Nick again. I tried.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I did not touch these berries, so if anybody would like... Please feel free.

[Translator]
Ezra started kindergarten this week.

[Student]
Oh my word! How is that possible?

[Translator]
It's not clear to me.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's like I missed nuts in last night's classes.

[Translator]
I could do homework and then give Nick some time, right? That's not crazy. Okay, cool.

I'm going to do that.

[Student]
Can you do your magic for me, please?

[Translator]
Let's see. Okay, it's up. Okay, I'm going to do this without showing you the answer key.

[Student]
Aw, kill Joy.

[Translator]
No, I would never kill for you the joy of getting to guess.

[Student]
Thank you.

[Translator]
Especially since you never guess. You just pull from your mind or your immaculate notes. Your immaculate mind or your immaculate notes.

Does immaculate mean bad? That's not a word we use. Yeah, who wrote the catalogue to the Derge Tengyur?

I decided we should know his name. I've already forgotten, but I put it on a homework quest. I'm working on the task.

I remember part of his name. I remember.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He's one of the ultimate mixed nuts, original mixed nuts.

[Translator]
Yeah, I thought we should know.

[Student]
It's not Geshe Wangchuk?

[Translator]
No, he did not write the catalogue to the Derge Tengyur, but he did set out.

[Student]
He put them all on the floor, yeah.

[Translator]
Right, he compared versions of the Derge Tengyur, but this, Lama.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Do you want to know his name, or am I supposed to not tell you guys?

[Translator]
Oh, you can do it. I also wrote it here, but let's quiz you, Lama, if no one else can do it. Tenzin, somebody.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, it's Shuchen, Shuchen Rinchen.

[Translator]
Oh, yeah, Shuchen. That's right, Shuchen Rinchen.

[Student]
Shuchen Rinchen.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Shuchen, Shudak.

[Translator]
Yeah, right, cool. And then we're going to steal a bunch of more footnotes based on his brilliant work for this book, as we have done for other books. What three works are considered the main body of Master Dharmakirti's books on the topic of accurate perception?

I feel confident you can come up with one of them.

[Student]
Doors of Reasoning.

[Translator]
No. Tsema Kuntu, Master Dignaga's, no. It's going badly so far.

Dharmakirti's. Tsema Namdrel. I'm going to give you a moment after my homework, okay?

Oh, I thought it was what you were saying, you were asking what it's based on. Yeah, Tsema Namdrel, sorry. Cool, Tsema Namdrel is definitely one of them.

[Student]
Tsema Rikpay Tikpa [?].

[Translator]
Yeah, Samariktik, right, yeah, Tsema Rikpay Tikpa [?]. How do you want to translate that?

[Student]
A Dose of Reasoning.

[Translator]
Cool.

[Student]
Or an Interlude on Reasoning, you know, that's what we're doing.

[Translator]
Right, sure. Yeah, right. I didn't try it yet, boss, but could, is it ambiguous enough to be potentially plural?

I thought Drops of Reasons was kind of cool, but maybe it's Drop of Reasons.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I think as far as I know, it's Drop, yeah.

[Translator]
Okay, all right, cool. There's a third one I don't think we got. Say it loud.

[Student]
Proof of Other Mindstreams.

[Translator]
Oh, no, that is one of his works and it's not considered the body. Here we go.

[Student]
Jewel of Accurate Perception?

[Translator]
No. These are the big three, apparently.

[Student]
Okay.

[Translator]
Cool. What is the name of the direct disciple of Master Dignaga, who was a teacher of Master Dharmakirti? What book did he write and what became of that text?

[Student]
Oh, we lost the text, I remember that.

[Translator]
Well. The Army of Liberation. Say again, Stanley?

The Army of Liberation. The Army of Liberation, is that his Chinese name?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, Sena means like army. Or division, Sena.

[Translator]
Oh, yeah. So what's his Sanskrit name then, word? You got Sena, doing well.

I know, I know, I know. How about the Tibetan? If someone gets the Tibetan, you will suddenly know Sanskrit.

Wait, isn't it Hlaas Nejiva [?]?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Anatol said it, it's Ishvara Sena.

[Translator]
Yeah, Ishvara Sena, cool. Now you get the Tibetan word. One, two, three.

Great. All right, super. Oh, wait, what happened to this book?

Oh, what was the name of this book and what happened to it? Oh, we don't really know. It was just a, I think it was just a commentary.

But what happened to it? Yeah, Utpal is basically right. She said that we lost it.

But for all we know, it's somewhere in Sanskrit. So I don't want to say we lost it because we just, it wasn't translated into Tibetan. So let's hold out hope.

[Student]
Yeah, so I don't mean lost meaning for all time. I just mean right now it's lost. Like my keys are kind of lost because I don't know where they are exactly.

[Translator]
We just didn't send Ayesha looking for it yet. So I don't want to be pessimistic prematurely. Maybe she'll find it.

[Student]
You should never be pessimistic.

[Translator]
Right, totally. Okay, cool. Let's do this then.

[Student]
Wow.

[Translator]
That was fast. Oh, well. Good, because you're so clever.

Geshe La, you gave me three little paragraphs here.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, that's true.

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, I'm working on it.

[Translator]
Deal.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Hmm. This message keeps coming up on my thing and blocking your text. Okay, there's only one thing missing from your first sentence.

It's du du kang. Oh. So we ask Lotsawa Kong [?], but he also says du kang.

[Translator]
Du kang Lodzawakong. Oh. Oh, when?

Yeah. Right. Uh-huh.

Great.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
When did which scholars translate? Okay.

[Translator]
Yeah, when were these works translated and who were the scholars, right? Where we may ask. Yeah.

Yeah, we could say even just right here, right? Yeah, well, we'll get it. I'll fix it later.

But yeah, when were the works on accurate perception translated?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And lotsawa always means a professional translator. You know what I mean? So it's, I think you might want to say the, you know, the great, their great translator, master translator or something like that.

[Translator]
You know, my, my hesitance and it's going to come up again. So you're probably going to flag me on it later is because I didn't want to say who were the translators who translated. I just thought it was clunky.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. It works out. It works out.

Okay.

[Translator]
Okay. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you would do that or not.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
If you would do that, then it's the right thing, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't say translators translated either. Yeah. Okay.

[Translator]
Okay, cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
All right. Here we go. Wait, wait, wait.

I didn't finish that paragraph.

[Translator]
Oh, I apologize. I'm sorry.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Hmm.

[Translator]
Hmm. Hmm.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm. That's like when you go to the dentist and they're, they're not. They're just.

You're just trying to assess out how much to charge you. Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm. Okay.

I would put commas around, for example. Right. Right.

Which line.

[Student]
Oh, yeah.

[Translator]
For example.

[Student]
Yep.

[Translator]
Okay, cool. Yeah.

[Student]
Is there.

[Translator]
Yep. Sure is. I mean, where.

No, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Student]
Okay. Third line from the bottom. Oh, no, you're right.

Gosh. I must've been my eyes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Hmm. I like it. The whole thing's okay.

I asked you what this lay mean in the beginning of the last line of the Tibetan.

[Translator]
Let's see. Oh, I'm from. I'm sorry.

From Sanskrit. No.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Slay means other than just a few other than just a few. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. And. And by the way, noon, Shay is the.

What do you call a comparative and what's EST in English. Superlative. Anyway, I just a tiny bit.

Okay. So no, no more than a few. Would you change that?

Say no more than a few. That's good. Okay.

Yeah. No more than a very few. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. Okay, cool.

I'll go back and fix it.

[Translator]
I'll. I watched these videos later. So I won't forget.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Nice. Hmm. You missed the.

[Translator]
Oh. Second line. Oh.

Oh. Let's see. Many.

Oh, okay. Oh, did I. I'm sorry.

They were Indian masters or what.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
They were gaggers to tongue [?].

[Student]
And this feature.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
This is like the tongue and don't learn. What's don't let me.

[Translator]
Bring and taking.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, by Indians. Oh, they were sent. So don't mean sent.

Oh, sent to India. Oh, meaning they were sent to India. Yeah, I didn't know that.

I mean, he's saying, oh, they were sent to India and that's where they did the translation. The Tibetan, the Tibetan translators. Hundreds of them sent to India.

Okay.

[Translator]
Okay. All right. See, I folded that into the word Sanskrit here, but that's not what's going on, I guess.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, yeah.

[Translator]
I didn't. I didn't forget it. I just got it wrong.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, that's fine.

[Translator]
Here we're still.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I like it. It's fine. Oh, hang on.

Now, you guys have to learn to put the pronunciation in the standard Roach way. So, a final G is a K Peltek.

[Translator]
A final G.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah.

[Student]
And show girl.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so Peltek should end in a K.

[Translator]
Of course.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, right. I don't have choker in front of me. I'm sure you do.

Here it is. Yeah, so that should be CLKRO.

[Translator]
Of course. Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. And Louie.

[Translator]
Louie.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Louie Louie. Yeah, it's okay for now. I know this.

I put gel 10. Okay.

[Student]
Really?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yes. It's not gal. They don't say gal.

No Tibetan says gal.

[Student]
I know they don't, but we know that when A comes before an L, we say gal.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, but boy, that's totally against all the rules. The purpose of putting pronunciation is to put pronunciation.

[Student]
Well, yeah, I know. But like, for example, with D at the end, we don't say D, we say day. Because we know that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, yeah.

[Student]
That E sounds like A.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Well, that much, we're going to make them learn.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. I don't mind to put D E Y, by the way. Okay.

[Translator]
I wanted to ask you a weird question. Just because I had you cornered for a brief moment. No problem.

Which is, oh, that's not it.

[Student]
Pretty though.

[Translator]
Yeah, it is pretty. In fact, look how pretty. Oh, that's not it.

Sorry. Look how pretty this one is. Sorry.

Here we go. Yeah. Yeah, this is the one.

So this. I was going to. These notes at the end, are these just.

Fixing errors. In the, the woodblock. So it's, it's just.

A really pretty heart sutra print. And I, I kind of wanted to. I was going to put it, I was going to put it on the wall of the yoga studio and frame it, but I was just a little confused about what's at the end here.

Cause I thought it was such a pretty. Print.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He's put a dok here. Which is a ritual for using the heart sutra to stop obstacles.

[Translator]
Oh, that's so cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. And. You know, you could probably find it in the database cleanly.

By certain. Or a couple of the pieces. Okay.

Writing. I'm guessing this is a Mongol print. But.

Like the last line is. It's a dog song gay. Dog song gay.

Dog song gay.

[Translator]
Some game.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of, I suspect it's illiterate.

Okay. But I'm not sure. I'm not.

You. Yeah, I suspect it's misspelled.

[Translator]
Okay. I'll look it up. That's really cool.

That's. I'm sorry. You know, thank you for indulging me.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
That's interesting. But if you look at. For some of them.

This is where you could do a Boolean search, that is, proximity search. Among with some of the weird pieces and you would find it somewhere. Can you go to the beginning of the handwritten part?

Only. Yeah. That's.

Got that. Got the. Right.

The X means. Everybody knows what to do. Okay.

May all. May all obstacles be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So he's, you know, but after that it gets messy.

Okay. For example, that thing in the middle is GANG GI RTEN CING BRAL BA. It's totally erased and messed up.

Right after RGYAL KHYEN PAR BYED, it's GANG GI RTEN CING BRAL BA CHUNG. Yeah, it's all messed up. See, the BRAL is missing.

The RTAG is missing on BRAL. Oh, I see. BRAL is missing.

The DEN got changed to DEN. Somebody was trying to write what they heard. Cool.

Okay. That's not so bad. That's kind of neat.

Thank you for indulging me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I like it.

It's fun. And you could find the correct verses in the database. Oh, look.

Yeah, these are a little messed up.

[Student]
Boy, that carver, though. Wow. I know.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's beautiful, right?

[Student]
So precise.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I believe that's Mongol carving, if I'm not mistaken.

[Student]
Gorgeous.

[Translator]
Yeah, and it's kind of our version. It's the version that you taught us to memorize once upon a time.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and that doesn't match the Kangyur. Right. Cool.

[Translator]
Yeah, it didn't. The ones I found in the Kangyur didn't match as well. Cool.

Okay. Thank you for indulging me. I really appreciate it.

Nick, did you want to talk for a minute? Yeah. Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Thank you for bringing that back up, man. Thanks. So I'll do a quick pitch now and I'll do a quick pitch again in the morning so that we catch the people who come to the morning sessions and the people who come to the evening sessions.

So for you nuts and the rest of you who come to both, thank you for coming to everything and I'm sorry you have to hear this twice. So I'll try to do it fast. We're doing a thing now in DCI and SCIM where we're asking the participants, especially in the Sedona College of International Management, to write what we call life tools, which is nothing other than practical applications of the ancient wisdom that we dig up, that we store in the ALL database, and that we translate into English and other modern languages in the Nick's Nuts, in the Diamond Cutter Classics Translation Program.

And, you know, right now we're dependent upon Geshe Michael to write all of that content. And we want to create a base of people with the ability to mine, we like to call it diamond mining, to mine the information from these texts and turn it into something practical for people beyond just Geshe Michael. And we, you know, those of us who are translating every term, we also do it after each term.

We diamond mine our own texts and create what we've been calling real apps. In DCI language, they're called life tools. They're the same thing.

It's practical stuff, practical modern things that you can do with the ideas contained in this literature. And there's a lot of it. It's surprising and it's fun.

It's really, really fun to write them because it helps people. I think that's the main reason it's fun and it's creative and it kind of helps you to understand the material in a new way that's relatable for you and for other people. So we want you guys to participate as mixed nuts by taking something, by doing some mining, by digging into the ideas that we are talking about here in class and finding, you know, just grabbing hold of something and turning it into something practical.

And we had a lot of fun in the last term of SCIM assigning people to do this and they came up with some really, really cool stuff. And I had fun doing it myself and I came up with what I think was pretty good stuff. I'll send it around to you guys so you can see what it is.

And so your assignment, what we're asking you to try to do is just write down an idea, take an idea from Ben's text or my text or Stanley's text or Allison's or whoever, anybody's book that you're listening to and turn it into something useful and practical. And you would just basically write a page or two pages, hopefully in English or in Chinese, because we have Chinese people on the panel. They're about to find out who they are that are going to have to, as part of their work, review your submissions.

So you'll write this down. And we're going to compare them and we're going to critique them. And if you, if yours is really good, you can win some money.

Cause I don't know if you've noticed, but Geshe Michael keeps on giving out money throughout the term. So he wants to do five prizes. Okay.

So the five best are going to get 200 bucks each US dollars. Okay. Turns out once a little more.

Doesn't go that far in New York. Is that the thing? Anyhow.

It's a start. Okay. So we're going to do like a little contest, but, but do it for fun.

Okay. Just do it for your own. Learning and for your own creativity.

Like developing your own creativity for improving your own understanding of the material. And for, for creating something that people can use. And it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, It's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not.

And if it's, if it's good enough. And if it's relevant enough to what's coming up. In the next manuals that Geshe Michael will write.

Maybe he will include it in his upcoming manuals. So that would be cool. You know, You get a little author spot in the manual.

[Student]
So I know this happened last. Who won last term? Who won last term and got to teach with Geshe Michael?

And what did they say?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
We actually didn't. Thanks for bringing that up. We didn't offer any cash prizes last term.

Oh, so we didn't get submissions. Got it. I also think that people didn't really understand well enough what they were supposed to do.

So I'm going to send around an example of one that I created. Maybe I can send around what Stanley and Sugeng did as well, if they agree. No pressure.

I'll ask you later. Stanley and Sugeng and I created some, and I'll send you some of Geshe Michael's as well. Most of you have seen them.

But now you'll be thinking about it in a different way. You know, this is information from the ancient source turned into something useful. Yes, I will send examples.

I will do that as soon as I possibly can, which will be soon. And hopefully that will help get the juices flowing. And people, you know, write me if you're still confused about what to do after you've seen the examples.

But it's pretty simple. It has to reference one of the sources. It has to reference one of the books, okay?

A topic covered in one of our books. It has to be relevant and practical for people. And Alison, what else does it need to have?

[Student]
And catchy name.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Catchy name.

[Student]
And picture.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
A beautiful picture.

[Student]
Copyright free.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yes, yes, thank you. Don't get us into this. That's serious, actually.

Please make sure it's copyright free. And don't send us something with the watermarks on it, okay? That's terrible.

It's just painful to look at. And people do it. I got a lot of them.

So that's your mission, okay? And we're going to, among us, the mixed nuts, we're going to look at them. And we're going to make, you know, we're going to pick some of the ones we think are the best ones, and then we'll compare those.

And then the winners are going to get money. Thank you for your gracious time.

[Translator]
Thanks, Nick.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, Dr. Cameron, are you ready?

[Translator]
I am, boss. You take the mic. Here we go.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yes, you want to, here we come.

[Translator]
Yes, you want to, here we come.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so here's the parts that Ben already translated. Yeah, no, you did a good job. You all did good jobs, actually.

I'm pretty impressed. I'm pretty shocked, actually. Okay.

Okay, so we finished these translators. And here's some information about them, Ben, and, you know, if you want. Yeah.

You know, some biographical information about each of them.

[Translator]
Oh, I did a weird thing I meant to ask you about while we were there. But the text actually listed the three translators and then listed the translator named Virachana. And it just, for whatever reason that I don't know how to put my finger on, it seemed like the flow of the English is that we would typically put one name before we would put three names.

And so I did it that way. I said Virachana and the great three or something, and then listed them. How faithful would you be to the...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I would stick to him because it's often a statement on who's more important.

[Translator]
Okay. Okay. I will.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
All right. Thank you. Okay, there's a lot of biographical information there.

If we try to put dates on them and stuff like that. All right.

[Student]
Geshe Michael. Are you going back up? Because you gave Ben things to translate that were a few stanzas beyond where we stopped.

[Translator]
We're still working on original Sanskrit texts. Thank goodness. You're totally correct.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
My bad.

[Student]
No. No, not that far. But if you search for 308FF, you should get...

Oh, there it is.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, let's start here, Ben. Sugeng wants to check you. What time is it there, Sugeng?

It's morning, half past seven. I was trying to figure out why you look sleepy. Okay.

No, I'm not. I'm just doing some massage. All right, here we go.

Let's go, Mr. Ben.

[Translator]
Someone named Gyalwa Chen, and I looked around for a while, but I think you could do better.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And again, please don't assume that university scholars are correct. They're often wrong. So try to find it in Mahabharata or something like that.

[Translator]
I'm sorry. I don't remember what just happened, so I'm not sure what the day is. You mean...

Right. Whatever he's saying.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
He's just listing... Oh, I see. Yeah.

Who's De Loma, right?

[Student]
Yeshe Tsangpo?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So Prajnaparamita, his student, right?

[Translator]
Right, cool. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, which is... I think it's Jayavati. I'm not sure.

And I went through his... I was curious how many of these authors covered all four chapters, because it seems like a lot of people had obstacles to finishing all four chapters. It seems like he finished all four chapters.

And then if you want some homework for next time, tell me the order of the chapters in some of those authors in the Tengyur, and what did they call the chapters? So you just look for the word lyu in their book, you know?

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. So I'm going to show you... Let me show you something, okay?

Hang on. Let's go to Gopher. So I have a Gopher up here.

I don't know what I was looking for. Oh, this is something I put in Seiji's text, but we didn't get to it, which was the three kinds of bodhichitta, you know, the shepherd, and the king, and... It's going to come in your text.

[Student]
Oh, yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, so it comes very soon. So I put the footnote in there. But Ben, if I was going to do the assignment I just gave you, I would go to search settings, right?

[Student]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then I would search for lyu. Okay, very simple. People rarely mention the word lyu unless they are saying that was chapter three.

[Student]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Then I want to teach you something important that I've just been using a lot lately. And I would... How do I get rid of this?

Let me see. Okay, I got something in the way here. Oh, I'm sorry.

Something went wrong. Oh, I'm sorry. Can you see the gopher screen?

[Translator]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, I'm sorry. You know, I've been doing a lot of searching, and I want to show you a trick, okay?

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So we're talking about the great commentaries to Dharmakirti, and there's all this confusion about which chapter is one, which chapter is two. You see what I mean? And I thought it would be interesting, Homer, for you to study what each commentator called each chapter and the order of each of the book, you see?

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So this is how I would personally do it. I would add... I would click on add.

Yes. Let me add a new search field.

[Student]
Sure.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then personally, I would go to my copy of the ALL database on my computer, which I keep under A because I use it so often.

[Translator]
This doesn't show us this window, but I do think... Oh, I'm sorry.

[Student]
If you just describe what you're doing, then we'll get it.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, then I'll go to Tengyur.

[Student]
Tengyur.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then I'll go to Tsema, which is category 11.

[Translator]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then I'll... That's all. I will...

And then I will open a new... Now you see down here, I've opened a new search field.

[Translator]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which is all the books in the Tengyur that have to do with pramana.

[Translator]
Yes.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which is what your book is about right now. And then I'm going to search them for Liu.

[Translator]
Great.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Here we go. Here's the first one.

[Translator]
Oh good, there's not too many.

[Student]
73, no problem.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I know. I would go Dzog Tso or something like that. Let me see.

There it is. Okay. I'm interested when there's an appositive.

Oh, that was the first chapter, which is Ngun Sum Liu.

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. Oh, sorry. That's Tsema Nam Nge.

Cancel that. We're not interested in that. Canceled.

[Translator]
Should we put it near the Nam Drel?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, because he might not have said it.

[Translator]
Right.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So I would say skip to commentaries on Tsema Nam Drel. This is not. Okay.

Here's a commentary to Tsema Nam Drel. Okay. Yes.

And I can't see the gopher screen. Oh no, really? I got stuff in the way.

Do you see Liu here? Yeah, it's up top.

[Student]
Up top.

[Translator]
Oh, I see. I understand what's happening to you. I'm sorry.

I get it. At the very top.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, good. That's fine. Sage is trying to figure it out.

[Translator]
And then Liu Nipa is next, right? So that's encouraging.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. Yeah. I want you to do a study of what they thought the chapters were.

Okay. Look, I'll tell you something. I'll tell you a search setting here.

Let's go back to search setting.

[Translator]
Totally.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Search for it near two commas. Like that.

[Translator]
Oh, interesting.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Very interesting. Show me what, boss. Look.

[Student]
Oh, far few.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Then you'll get to the end of each chapter. So this author. Oh, this is Tsema Namnge.

We're not interested. Skip to another... I'm sorry.

Skip to another book. Okay, next five.

[Translator]
Cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Skip to another book.

[Translator]
Yeah. There's a book. Here we go.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, you see, when you put the two commas, you're going to get real chapters. This person, which is Gyalwa Chen, Jayavati, that you just had, he didn't name the chapter. He said chapter two.

I just finished chapter two. I would skip that. Skip that.

[Translator]
Okay, Gyalwa Chen. But this is him writing his own name?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I'm Gyalwa Chen and I just finished the second chapter. But he doesn't tell you what the second chapter is. Like a political endorsement.

Okay.

[Student]
He might have said what it was in a different way, right? Without using the word chapter. Like first we're going to talk about this and then this and then that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, I don't want to look for that. I want to look for the end of the chapter where he says, I just covered chapter two. And that treats this subject.

Okay. So here's a chapter four. Yeah, and by the way, I can't think of a commentary where that's not the fourth chapter.

Okay. So that's not really what we're looking for. Okay.

But the fourth chapter is always a deduction for the sake of other people, as opposed to for yourself. Okay. Okay, let's skip that one.

Here's chapter one. Nobody said what it was about. Okay, thank you.

Oh, sorry, let's go back. I just, I went too fast. Here it is.

I'm sorry, it's right here. Rangijen Jesu bakpa dupa te lyu dambo. So this author of 4.2.2.0. Yeah. Okay, the author of 4.2.2.0. He thinks the first chapter is what?

[Translator]
He thinks that it is the one for your own, establishing deduction for your own benefit.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, logic for your own benefit. Trying to prove to yourself that Buddhism is correct and the Buddha is really omniscient.

[Translator]
Right. Okay, that's cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's interesting because many authors will put the ngun sum leo first.

[Translator]
Yeah.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
They'll say, no, no, Dharmakirti taught direct perception first.

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Or he taught deduction. This author thinks that the first chapter should have been deduction for your own self, for your own sake, and not direct perception.

[Translator]
So I'm going to try to produce you a like comparative list of different masters.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, let's get to the bottom of this. I want to get to the bottom of this. We do have an auto-commentary to the first chapter.

So whichever chapter he, and by the way, you can also check the Tsema Namdrel itself.

[Translator]
You would think.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and see how he put the chapters. But I think you're going to be surprised by the results. People have mixed up the chapters.

Oh, cool.

[Translator]
But even if we find that Tsema Namdrel itself, is it possible that that's an editor's decision that came later?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's possible, but yeah, it's possible. But it's unlikely that he would start his auto-commentary from a chapter he didn't think was the first one.

[Translator]
Well, sure. The auto-commentary, but the auto-commentary only exists in reference to the first chapter. So unless we've lost the others.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, that's true. So, yeah, I would like you to look through and it worries me. It bothers me that people wrote thousand-page commentaries and couldn't agree on which chapter was first and which chapter was second.

It's very disturbing to me. I don't know. Okay, we're going back to work, okay?

But that's your homework instead of translating. I want you to do that.

[Translator]
Okay, I'm happy to do both also. Okay, I'll give you two. Okay, whatever you want.

Yeah, it's cool.

[Student]
Okay.

[Translator]
So anyway, there's, he wrote. I think this is the last homework that I get for this term. So it's kind of nice to be able to lay it on thick.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, so he wrote a commentary to the Jewel of Accurate Perception, which itself was written by somebody else. There's Gyen Kimball [?], Prajñākāra Gupta. So Prajñākāra Gupta's student, maybe Jayavati, he wrote his commentary to his teacher's commentary.

The student wrote 677 folios, which is 5,000 pages in English. Wow. And the teacher wrote 4,000.

And so people have really, this text has fascinated very, you know, Madhyamikans [?], you know? Okay, here we go. Can you see the screen, Ali?

Ali, let me check you.

[Translator]
Okay. Lopbun duwa la.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Whoa.

[Translator]
Lopbun duwa la. Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Ali has a big smile and says she's so proud of me. Ah, so Lopbun duwa la, which is Vinita Deva, he wrote what?

[Translator]
An expansive commentary on the analysis of objects of perception.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Perfect. Yay. And he wrote a commentary on sattva-rikpa.

[Translator]
On, yeah, the science of debate or...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, disputation or whatever. And he wrote a commentary on tense-tikpa.

[Translator]
On drops of, a drop of reasoning.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Good. Then came along Master Acharya Dharmottara, and he wrote, interestingly, he wrote a commentary on jikten parodupa. Um, I'm sorry, he wrote a book called Jikten Parodupa.

Sorry.

[Translator]
Okay, um, yeah, it's like, um, getting to the far side of the world.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, this is more interesting.

[Translator]
Oh, good.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Proving other, proving other people's minds. No. Proving there's a world out there.

Uh, proving the next life.

[Student]
And future lives.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh. Okay, proving there's a world after this one. Wow, cool.

Okay, that sounds pretty interesting. Yeah, parodupa. Jikten parodupa, proving the world after this one.

Cool. The next, the next world. Wow.

Then he wrote a commentary on Tsema Namnge.

[Translator]
Yeah, right, on ascertaining accurate perception.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And he called it, modestly, tenden. Uh, no, I don't know. Tenpa means correct.

So he said, he wrote a commentary, which he modestly entitled, the correct one. Something I would do.

[Translator]
Right, did he write a big one and a little one?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, he wrote a longer one and a shorter one. Yeah, good, good, good, notice. Yay, here comes one of my heroes.

[Translator]
Hey, there he is.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Uh, Utpala wants to check you, because she's now an official Kamalashila fan.

[Translator]
gyelwa wangpo dzepay tsema kundu gyi jel she, lopun Jamari dzepay tsema gyen gyi jel she.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, great. So, what did Master Kamalashila write?

[Translator]
Oh, Master Kamalashila wrote a commentary on the drops, on the drop of reasoning.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah, good, yeah. Drop of reasoning for accurate perception, yeah. And then Master Shantarakshita wrote...

He wrote a commentary on the science of disputation. Yay, and then Jinendra, gyelwa wangpo, wrote a commentary on tsema kundu.

[Translator]
Yeah, on the compendium by Dignaga.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Which is also called...

[Translator]
The tsema sutra, the sutra on accurate perception.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, tsema du, good. And then Master Jamari wrote... Jamari, this is a corruption of Yamari, right?

I believe it is, yeah. You have to pronounce it Yamari. Yamari, uh-huh.

Uh, the fact that it might be too long is...

[Translator]
Yamari, Yamari, Yamari. Isn't it Yama?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, the second A should be long for sure, but let me check here. Yeah, it is. Okay.

It's a short A, the first A is short. It's correct, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, shinje means the Lord of Death, right? Yama, okay, not Yama, Yama. And then enemy is Ari.

So it's Jamari, the enemy of the Lord of Death, the killer of the Lord of Death. Okay, that's his, I believe that's his name, yeah.

[Translator]
And he wrote a commentary on the...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, yeah, and I think in Northern India in certain epochs, Y changed to Zha, Zha and Ya were interchangeable, I think. All right, keep going.

[Translator]
Cool.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I think Christina Casica [?] wants to check you because she can make fun of your Sanskrit. Okay.

[Translator]
Yeah, it is. Wow. Yeah.

You can talk into here. Do you want me to say Bramse or do you want me to say Chamse? Chamse?

You want me to say Chamse? Don't fix it for them. Wait, fix what?

I mean, it's Bram, you know, but it's Cham, but we're going to say, we're going to...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Oh, yeah, I don't know if it's Bram, but anyway, it's Chamse, yeah, just say that.

[Translator]
Okay. Jnana?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
No, just Sri.

[Translator]
Okay, Sri, okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
They spelled it wrong, yeah.

[Translator]
Okay, that's just the adjective, okay. Yep. Okay.

Yay!

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So, I believe it's Ravi Gupta, okay. There is different ways to say NYI MA BUG PA'I PA, so you might want to check it. He wrote a TSE MA RNAM BDAL GYI commentary.

[Translator]
Okay, a commentary on the Pramanavartika.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
And then he says a very unhelpful thing.

[Translator]
Oh, super. Tell me. Yeah, on both the first and second chapters.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, and he didn't tell us which ones are the first and second chapters. Yeah, so telling us somebody wrote a commentary on the first two chapters of TSE MA RNAM BDAL is like useless information.

[Translator]
Does Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk think it was the first and second, or does Ravi Gupta think it was the first and second?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I mean, who knows? Okay, then we got Shankarananda, who is not... who?

[Translator]
Um, he's not...

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Shankaracharya? Yeah, he's not the Drangchenpa, the Sankhya scholar. Shankaracharya.

[Translator]
Yeah, I think Vedanta, technically.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, he's not a Vedanta scholar. Okay, a different one. Shankarananda, he wrote a BDAL PA too.

[Translator]
Um, also to the TSE MA RNAM BDAL, to the commentary on BDAL perception. Accurate.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Who is Jnana Sri, Jnana, Jnana, Jnana Sri, who was a kache, from kache.

[Translator]
From Kashmir?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, Kashmir. And what did Kashmir... what did kache later become in Tibetan?

Pandit? Um, no, it became the Tibetan word for Muslim. Because they were thought to come from the area of...

Where... no, where Amritsar is. Sorry.

Where the Sikhs live. Yeah, the Punjab, or Kashmir. Yeah, so they...

Tibetans thought that all Muslims came from Kashmir, so they called them Kashmiris, but they... And later, kache became Muslim. In an ancient book, it means Kashmiri.

Okay, and the Kashmiris, Jnana Sri wrote...

[Translator]
Well, this is a commentary to the TSE MA RNAM BDAL, but why is he now saying TIG when he didn't before?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's just whatever word the Sanskrit author decided on. You could say BDAL SHES, you could say BDAL PA, you could say TIG KA, you could say TIG CHEN.

[Translator]
So now are we taking these as names of the books? I mean, he wrote a commentary on that book, or he wrote the TIG KA on that book.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The way it has a genitive before it, it's probably the great commentary. Now, yay, we reached sort of a wonderful place. DOM NA, DOM NA means all together.

And with mathematics, it means the sum of an addition. Okay, so two plus two, DOM NAS, four. Okay, so all together, if you add them all up, TSE MA'I CHUNG, translated into Tibetan, the number, CHUNG, is JUG JUG SA GCIG.

61? Yeah, 61 works from India survive in Tibetan translation. And thank God he didn't cover all of them.

Okay, I guess, I'm assuming he covered the ones he thought were most important, and perhaps the ones that were most useful for him in his commentary.

[Translator]
All right. How many do we have? Do you know?

I'll check, I guess.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, you can check. He probably just counted how many were in the Tengyur.

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
So we probably have 61.

[Translator]
Good chance, right?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah. In fact, I can tell you right now in 30 seconds.

[Translator]
I can afford that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay.

[Translator]
Sorry, I'm over time, but I'm gonna say I can afford that.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, okay. You got cheated because we did a bunch of announcements and everything.

[Translator]
I'm a happy person, it's okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay, let me see here. Okay, I'm gonna give you the first Tohoku number and the last Tohoku number, and you're gonna tell me the difference.

[Translator]
Okay.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Okay. The first one is 4203.

[Translator]
4203.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
The last one is... Oh man, it just freaked out. The last one is 4268.

[Translator]
So 4268 minus 4203 is 65.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's actually 66, I think.

[Translator]
Fascinating. Okay, I mean, I just typed it into a computer.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Put it on your fingers. Don't trust computers.

[Translator]
Oh, you're including. Yeah, from one to the other.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
It's a funny fact of life that subtraction doesn't work. I believe, I believe so.

[Translator]
So very likely this is, we have separate, maybe it's separate chapters, right? Maybe.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Well, you could, you know, if you want to have some fun. By the way, Tohoku catalog writers did not assign separate numbers to multi-volume works. They were careful not to do that.

So we can't blame it on that. These commentaries are so huge that they're multi-volume, but they did not renumber them. They were sharp enough.

By the way, it was an incredible piece of work in 1935 or something. And it was probably interrupted by the war. And I went to Tohoku University to find those guys.

And they're all dead. There's nobody left. And the books are still there in locked drawers.

Each book has its own drawer. And they were badly flooded during the tsunami. So I don't know if it affected the collection.

But anyway.

[Translator]
I mean, what jumps out to me to wonder is the Tsema in 12,000 verses that includes the auto-commentary of the first chapter, right? Did Geshe Yeshe Wangchuk consider that one book? Whereas maybe they considered that its own book.

And then the other three separate books.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, you might just glance through the different Tohoku numbers and see if you can notice any reason why. Sometimes there's two translations of the same book. But rarely.

So why he thought it was 61, maybe you could figure it out. Unfortunately, he's passed away. Hurrah.

We're well over time. All right. By the way, there was a great logician from Tashi Lhunpo, the abbot of Tashi Lhunpo, Gen Supa, who also passed away.

He was also a teacher of Geshe Thich Nhat Hanh [?]. And he also helped us debating. He was a great, great, great scholar of Pramana.

But he passed away. So he wrote a great Dura, by the way. It's probably the best Dura, actually.

[Translator]
What is it? Who's the master? Or do we have it?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, Gen Supa. And he wrote it. Yeah, and I often use it for footnotes and stuff.

OK, I wrote to Sonam to see if she could send somebody to interview Geshe Thich Nhat Hanh on the life of Geshe Thich Nhat Hanh. So let's see. OK, that would be great.

I believe he respects her a lot for her work. He knows about her. OK, I'll let her know that.

Yeah, I believe he really respects her. OK. OK, I'll see you guys at 5.06 [?]. Very good.

[Student]
Thank you, Geshe La.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Thank you.

[Student]
Do you have an updated version of the rest of the afternoon's text?

[Geshe Michael Roach]
I do not, because I was, I had to do.

[Student]
No, no worries.

[Geshe Michael Roach]
Yeah, I had to do some stuff that related to Mrs. Hancock. So, OK, all right. Thank you.

See you guys soon. Thanks, boss. See you in a moment.

OK, bye-bye. All right, scan here.